The rewritting history thread, or how Mikel/Arsenal turned it around. Or didn't. What even IS real?

[AbouCuéllar]

One is true, the other isn't. Just let it go...

16 starts in PL, 23 in total, pencilled in as our starter going into 21-22...man, tell Asensio or Kingsley Coman or Fede Valverde or basically anyone at a top club that that is not being given a proper chance, they'll wonder what reality they're living in Mahrez played less last season than Pepe in 20-21 in the PL, FFS

 

[14Henry]

Pepe was still unfairly treated tho, and never given a proper chance

Personally I think he had enough time to prove himself and it just didn't work. I think he will perform much better being the big fish in the small pond, in an easier league.

He needs the freedom to just play his game and the top teams don't allow for that. Price tag didn't help judgement either.

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

It's funny to see those who bash Mikel about playing youth etc and use what Wenger did etc as a comparison.

It's often in the EL threads were people saying Wenger would have played the kids in a meaningless EL match. Yet when they are asked to post Wengers last group match team in the EL they fail to do so because they see that he actually didn't play the kids.

The best thing about these football debates is that more often than not the players or the teams, do actually prove whose opinion was right and whose opinion was wrong and those are things that can't be debated.

Hairspray was adamant with time Mikel would be a success. When we were in a bad spell and it looked impossible, he was lambasted. I was one of them thought he had lost the plot. Or his brother had. But he looks like he was right all along.

Other big debates on the forum have been put to bed like the top 4 one last season, or signings, or subs etc because results on the pitch and outcomes have shown those and cannot be debated further.

The thing is though, you can be right for the wrong reasons.

If someone just rode Arteta irrespective of the results or situation at all times they may have ended up being right but it's not for a logical or fact based reason. So it's not really respectable to me.

The same as the few who still want to pillory Arteta even though we're top of the table and exceeding expectations.

You've got to change your views based on the situation at hand. If someone has never been Arteta Out and isn't currently Arteta In, I'd find it hard to respect their opinions.

It's why I think this thread will cause issues raking over the past. We can't retcon the past just because we know how things are now. Arteta made some poor decisions and deserved to be sacked at the time but he wasn't and fortunately things seem to have really turned a corner. I don't believe he was ever an awful manager but I also don't think there was some hidden genius behind some of his more baffling decisions.

 

[14Henry]

The thing is though, you can be right for the wrong reasons.

If someone just rode Arteta irrespective of the results or situation at all times they may have ended up being right but it's not for a logical or fact based reason. So it's not really respectable to me.

The same as the few who still want to pillory Arteta even though we're top of the table and exceeding expectations.

You've got to change your views based on the situation at hand. If someone has never been Arteta Out and isn't currently Arteta In, I'd find it hard to respect their opinions.

It's why I think this thread will cause issues raking over the past. We can't retcon the past just because we know how things are now. Arteta made some poor decisions and deserved to be sacked at the time but he wasn't and fortunately things seem to have really turned a corner. I don't believe he was ever an awful manager but I also don't think there was some hidden genius behind some of his more baffling decisions.

People find it hard to change their opinions on this forum to save face.

I was very vocal Arteta out but when results improved and style improved I changed. I'm firmly Arteta in.

However others won't admit to being wrong. Like never. That's why endless debates still continue after events have proven right v wrong.

 

[grange]

The Arteta wars died down in the Arteta thread, so the Arteta boys decided to open a new 'told you so' thread, because they're so excited at still being top of the league.

A mod created this thread. Try to keep up.

 

[Macho]

People find it hard to change their opinions on this forum to save face.

Like who? Cause aside from some extreme few cases I don't really see this.

and even if they don't, if people running the club know what they doing why does whatever some a minor fan think matter to some of you that much?

 

[Slug457]

The Arteta wars died down in the Arteta thread, so the Arteta boys decided to open a new 'told you so' thread, because they're so excited at still being top of the league.

Fortunately @Trilly has had the incredible will and the time to call out their nonsense again. I can't be arsed anymore. And anyway, seen us being top of the league before mid season when most of those Arteta boys on here told us it was sh!te and the manager needed removing. Lol.

Bingo. There's never even been a coherent Arteta out movement that I can make out, it's insanity to think there wouldn't be a few grumbles along the way as we finished out of Europe for the first time in decades, whilst scoring such low goal amounts. I don't think anyone truly believed we'd be perpetually out of Europe/top 4 if the investment/support continued as it did either. Artetas clearly intelligent and has the capacity to coach at a high level, has had the total support of the fans/board and the bulk of the players, a recipe for success. In my view the criticism has been incredibly limited, as you point out we were top of the league multiple times at far later stages under Wenger, with Wenger out chants ringing out we were top going into late December 2016, top going into late Jan 2016, top as late as Feb 2014 yet the criticism at the time was mostly furious. Ultimately that's the fans right. Doubt there were many pro Wenger guys posting I told you so's as ultimately succuss can only be judged at the end of seasons, or even with sustained success over multiple seasons.

I'll say this though, and to give credit to the very Pro Tets guys, the manner in which we have started is making me eat some delicious crow to an extent, as it's been title winning form. I thought top 3 and up was Tets limit this season, and it may very well still be (which will still be great), but if Tets does have us competing for the league, I.E pushing City to the very end, then I think that would be a more appropriate time for the I told you so's. If he wins it and I get to see the joyous scenes of Xhaka and Tets collectively lifting the trophy then I'll happily grovel before the "sexuals" for ever in any way doubting or criticizing Tets

 

[AbouCuéllar]

I don't believe he was ever an awful manager but I also don't think there was some hidden genius behind some of his more baffling decisions.

Don't think anyone's saying that though, just that you could see the reasons behind certain decisions, whether they were right or wrong, if you were willing to look at the nuances and not get caught up in the hysteria and haterism.

Frankly, I think it went like this: there was one premier league after his first start in the Europa League where he could've been chosen, and I believe we lost that game. ESR was fully match fit at that point, had played a full match at a competitive level, for the first team. Arteta wanted to change things up for Chelsea having lost that game, and having ESR available and having ramped up his minutes from U23 to EL subs to a full start, he could do so without significant risk with ESR, and did. He could've done so the game before, and he didn't. So perhaps you can reasonably criticise him for not using him one game before...or perhaps if you want to be extremely aggressive with your criticism you could criticise for not being more aggressive in ramping up his minutes through Europa League, and he should've started that second game where he went from 15 to 25-30 minutes IIRC instead of come off the bench. The latter is one step too far for me in reasonable criticism, if I'm honest, given all the context offered above, but I won't spend time disputing it if you accept that it is an aggressive and somewhat reaching criticism. That he could've used ESR in the PL match after his first start in EL and before Chelsea I will completely allow it and agree with it.

Finally, was ESR some master plan of Arteta's to save the season? No, of course not. I don't think anyone has said that, certainly not me. Was he a contingency plan or a secret hope, as things increasingly looked to be a failure with Willian and the team in general (Pepe included, if we're being honest and fair in our criticism)? Yeah, I think so. Just as the January window (which resulted in Ødegaard) would've been another contingency plan.

Was Willian a failed bet? Absolutely. No one is arguing that nor is it worth debating. Did we fail to offer ourselves enough options in attacking midfield in the shortened covid transfer window, to allow us to progress with the type of football Arteta wanted to move toward effectively in that season? Again, yes, I don't think that's worth debating either.

Good example, this.

Like who? Cause aside from some extreme few cases I don't really see this.

I can think of a good few, haha.

 

[14Henry]

Like who?

and even if they don't, if people running the club know what they doing what does some a minor fan think matter to some of you that much?

Doesn't matter that much but if someone goes out of their way to shut your opinion down and tell you their superior knowledge gives them more right, only to be proven wrong it would be nice for them to acknowledge that.

 

[Macho]

Doesn't matter that much but if someone goes out of their way to shut your opinion down and tell you their superior knowledge gives them more right, only to be proven wrong it would be nice for them to acknowledge that.

Would be nice, but we don't always get what we want. Did you apologise to all those lovely people you argued with when you was Arteta Out after you became Arteta In? I doubt it.

 

[AbouCuéllar]

Would be nice, but we don't always get what we want. Did you apologise to all those lovely people you argued with when you was Arteta Out after you became Arteta In? I doubt it.

Nah, but he does recognise he was wrong about certain things in a very humble and sensible fashion, without excessive pride.

 

[14Henry]

Would be nice, but we don't always get what we want. Did you apologise to all those lovely people you argued with when you was Arteta Out after you became Arteta In? I doubt it.

The main person I argued with was Hairspray. I have since made several references to him, which hopefully he will see, to indicate that he looks like he was right. I even offered to track him down and buy him 10 pints had we made top 4 last season. And when we didn't I didn't go criticising him. Because there was still progression.

I have also openly admitted that it looks like I was wrong on Arteta.

Can you not see that? There have been other members who have never acknowledged they were wrong which means debates go back and forward. I guess that's what makes the site a success. More clicks and hits.

 

[dka1]

Pepe was still unfairly treated tho, and never given a proper chance

Tbh I just don't think Pepe is/was Arteta's type of winger.

I say this because on the back of the 20/21 season in which he got his place back on the wing from Willian, and scored just over 1 in 3 in the PL, he started off getting good minutes in the league; 21/22 season, in fact 90 minutes per game in 5 games towards the beginning of the season, but after Palace in mid/late October he barely played again.

He did get three starts in the EFL Cup but in the PL no game time in November, under 20 minutes total in December. No game time in Jan before AFCON, he returns and gets some minutes but never more than 22 per game after AFCON.

I'm not saying he was great at the beginning of last season because from my recollection he was average (at best folks!). However in that small period in which he was starting consistently, the whole team was quite poor anyway.

Also you take a look at a guy like Willian who is the type of winger Arteta likes (albeit he was a poor version of it for us), he continued to get a healthy amount of minutes in the league, even after Pepe eventually started getting preferred to him.

Finally, Pepe finished the 19/20 season in good form, but just the summer after he already became deputy on the wing to Willian (in PL). It took until January 2021 for Pepe to start getting consistent playing time without interruption in the league, despite Willian playing badly for a lot of that season and despite Pepe doing well in the Europe League. What I will admit is that the silly red card did really interrupt his flow in the league, but not that much.

 

[grange]

Bingo. There's never even been a coherent Arteta out movement that I can make out,

Why was I battling 20-30 members at the same time for months? You weren't here.

 

[Slug457]

Doesn't matter that much but if someone goes out of their way to shut your opinion down and tell you their superior knowledge gives them more right, only to be proven wrong it would be nice for them to acknowledge that.

To be fair it goes both ways though, a lot of the very Pro Arteta guys were radically Wenger out, pushed the line that Wenger was a senile incompetent stopping the team winning the league, said at the time Emery was an upgrade, then when we started finishing mid table continued to blame Wenger by saying the squad he left was ****, all whilst we invested record amounts largely thanks to the 20 years of economic stability and CL consistency only matched by Madrid/Barca, who had the massive advantage of having all Spanish TV money funneled to them and being super clubs, whilst we had the massive burden of having to build a training ground and stadium from self-generated funds. Think if some of the pro Arteta guys would stop pushing the anti-Wenger stuff, although some of it comes from the club itself unfortunately with the rotten culture for a decade line in that docu, then there could be a coming together.

There was a decline in his last two years, both sides acknowledge that although they differ on what caused it, but a lot continue to criticize the 20 years prior to that also, which was clearly the most successful period in the club's history, which is sad.

 

[dka1]

Ngl I do get flashbacks to the time you called Arteta a basque dog and it does make me chuckle @AbouCuéllar

Tbh overall I've admitted that I got it wrong with Arteta (and Edu) and I'm definitely happy that we're doing well now.

However if I still honestly believe Arteta messed up somewhere I'll just say it lol, like I'll give you my honest opinion but I don't pretend like I'm always right because I'm often not (I've admitted where I got it wrong with Ramsdale, Nuno, Off-White to an extent). On a side note the irony is that since Nuno impressed me at the beginning of last season I'm a huge supporter of his but most here aren't any longer, who'd have thunk.

 

[Macho]

The main person I argued with was Hairspray. I have since made several references to him, which hopefully he will see, to indicate that he looks like he was right. I even offered to track him down and buy him 10 pints had we made top 4 last season. And when we didn't I didn't go criticising him. Because there was still progression.

I have also openly admitted that it looks like I was wrong on Arteta.

Can you not see that? There have been other members who have never acknowledged they were wrong which means debates go back and forward. I guess that's what makes the site a success. More clicks and hits.

You are saying stuff you have no clue about tbh. That is not why arguments start at all.

 

[Slug457]

Why was I battling 20-30 members at the same time for months? You weren't here.

A few guys grumbling on an online forum isn't coherent compared to stadium boycotts/planes flying, the giant social media and IRL event that was the WOB movement. I didn't need to be here to know that.

 

[14Henry]

You are saying stuff you have no clue about tbh. That is not why arguments start at all.

Like what? Give me one example of a point of view I had that made 0 logic or sense.

 

[grange]

A few guys grumbling on an online forum isn't coherent compared to stadium boycotts/planes flying, the giant social media and IRL event that was the WOB movement. I didn't need to be here to know that.

You have no idea what you’re disagreeing with at this point. Just stop. I was told the fans at the stadium and in the pubs weren’t supporting Arteta.