When Was The Damage Done?

[Makingtrax]

On a superficial level it might seem like we weren’t spending money but we had one of the highest wage bills in the league. In 2008 for example we had the 3rd highest wage bill in the league.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/table/2009/jun/03/premier-league-turnover-wages-debt

A simple take would say we did well while being outspent by the rest of the league while the truth is our total spend has always been among the highest. If you think clubs like Sp**s were outspending us you need to look at the wage + transfer spend ours was much higher.

The reason people equate transfer spend with success is simple, the more you pay for players, the better their quality. Chelsea, City and United have spent the most on players and between them they’ve won the league every year but two since 2004.

Here’s the total spend of clubs between 2004 and 2012, our austerity years. You can see we’re 6th for spend, and if you look at the net spend you’ve got to go down to Portsmouth before you find another team who bought an sold so well in that period that they actually made a profit. Considering we had massive stadium debts, to make a profit on players and make top 4 every year was over performance personified. Sp**s were outspending us by a mile.

The relationship between wages and success is less clear, Arsenal have always had a high wage bill, usually 4th in the league behind City, United and Chelsea, this is not because we were attracting impressive squads but because we were paying players like Carl Jenkinson £50,000 a week.

Which ever way you want to look at it, transfer spend or wages Arsenal was over performing by coming continually inside the top 4 for 20 years straight.

 

[goonergaz]

For all the talk of developing players we did a very poor job post Highbury of getting good value for our players. Fabregas for 30+m, RVP for 20+m, Nasri 20+m. Awful business there. Then guys like Diaby, Bendtner and Denilson stuck on the payroll for years on wages so high we couldn’t give them away. Turning down 60m for Alexis and losing him for worse than nothing by getting a player who was useless, letting Ramsey run down his contract. The amount of money lost due to poor player contract management has been staggering.

And now look at what we've done with Guendouzi and Özil - literally throwing money away for no good reason.

 

[Makingtrax]

A palpable sense of complacency and lack of responsibility among our troops. That started during Wengers latter day. Lack of winning mentality.

He shall have some cred for keeping it together relatively well all the way through his departure, even if we were clearly stagnating.
And the "lesser" teams in the league have become stronger now than in Wengers days, is my feeling.

Lack of winning mentality! Wenger had one of the highest win rates of any manager in the Premier League over a consistently long period. He won 3 EPL titles and 7 FA Cups without even being an oligarch club. Sp**s our closest rivals outspent us easily for transfers and won absolutely zero.

The more I read in here the more I’m sure it’s seeded with Sp**s fans.

 

[Atlas]

The reason people equate transfer spend with success is simple, the more you pay for players, the better their quality. Chelsea, City and United have spent the most on players and between them they’ve won the league every year but two since 2004.

Here’s the total spend of clubs between 2004 and 2012, our austerity years. You can see we’re 6th for spend, and if you look at the net spend you’ve got to go down to Portsmouth before you find another team who bought an sold so well in that period that they actually made a profit. Considering we had massive stadium debts, to make a profit on players and make top 4 every year was over performance personified. Sp**s were outspending us by a mile.

The relationship between wages and success is less clear, Arsenal have always had a high wage bill, usually 4th in the league behind City, United and Chelsea, this is not because we were attracting impressive squads but because we were paying players like Carl Jenkinson £50,000 a week.

Which ever way you want to look at it, transfer spend or wages Arsenal was over performing by coming continually inside the top 4 for 20 years straight.

Money wasted on wages is money you don’t have available for transfers. Look at Man Utd with 4th-5th highest spend being the most successful club in that period. That’s incredible. Fergie was outperforming his spend. Wenger was about par if you include wages.

The table shows that Sp**s spent 170m more than us over 8 years. But we spent about 50m more per year on wages so the actual difference in spending between us and them is about 200m by us. What’s impressive about finishing above a team you outspent by 200m?

 

[Makingtrax]

Sometimes I wonder are you just taking the mick. Arsène was always a believer in a self funding model. He was one of the first to call for FFP and clubs spending in relation to their own income. Kroenke couldn't ask for a better manager and Wenger couldn't ask for a better owner.

Well I agree with that. We didn’t have an owner who invested over £1bn of their own money, like Mansour and Abramovic, the Kroenke’s have put nothing in. United have funded through large debts. We could never match those three. And Liverpool and Sp**s have also outspent us on transfers over the years. See table above.

 

[Makingtrax]

Money wasted on wages is money you don’t have available for transfers. Look at Man Utd with 4th-5th highest spend being the most successful club in that period. That’s incredible. Fergie was outperforming his spend. Wenger was about par if you include wages.

Fergie was excellent but over the years of their rivalry he spent 11 times more than Wenger for net spend. He wasn’t losing players to rival clubs and having to continually buy cheap players to replace them. He even poached RVP for his last title.

 

[Atlas]

Fergie was excellent but over the years of their rivalry he spent 11 times more than Wenger for net spend. He wasn’t losing players to rival clubs and having to continually buy cheap players to replace them. He even poached RVP for his last title.

A good manager fully utilizes all available resources to achieve his objectives. Wenger failed to do this.

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/amp/news/wenger-why-i-snubbed-barry-alonso

Anybody who understands club finances will tell you we underinvested in the squad and the only logical reason is it was done by choice. Wenger used to talk about difficulty finding value in the market because he couldn’t adapt to the new equilibrium. Choosing to develop youngsters rather than invest in the team was a choice. The money we eventually wasted on Laca, Mustafi and Xhaka has been sitting around in cash reserves waiting to be used since 2010. Whos fault is it we decided to use it 6 years later when player inflation was fully realized?

 

[bingobob]

Well I agree with that. We didn’t have an owner who invested over £1bn of their own money, like Mansour and Abramovic, the Kroenke’s have put nothing in. United have funded through large debts. We could never match those three. And Liverpool and Sp**s have also outspent us on transfers over the years. See table above.

At least we agree on something

 

[Makingtrax]

A good manager fully utilizes all available resources to achieve his objectives. Wenger failed to do this.

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/amp/news/wenger-why-i-snubbed-barry-alonso

Anybody who understands club finances will tell you we underinvested in the squad and the only logical reason is it was done by choice. Wenger used to talk about difficulty finding value in the market because he couldn’t adapt to the new equilibrium. Choosing to develop youngsters rather than invest in the team was a choice. The money we eventually wasted on Laca, Mustafi and Xhaka has been sitting around in cash reserves waiting to be used since 2010. Whos fault is it we decided to use it 6 years later when player inflation was fully realized?

Heard all that narrative before, Wenger had money but chose not to spend it. It’s like people saying Wenger sent the team out do what they wanted.

 

[Atlas]

Imagine thinking that Diaby who was just a worse version of Pepe and Denilson who was as pointless as a sea cucumber were worth developing instead of signing Xabi Alonso, one of the best midfielders of the last decade, for 17-18m. Of course the net spend figure looks good but it doesn’t tell you what a horrible decision that was. What it does tell you is how badly Wenger judged that crop of youngsters and how it cost us between 09-13.

But the net spend figures came out nice.

 

[Mrs Bergkamp]

Whos fault is that tho? Wenger chose to rely on youth because he wrongly believed that they were good enough. If you choose to develop Diaby and Denilson instead of signing Xabi Alonso you can’t then turn around and say you had no choice. We could have afforded better but Wenger chose not to spend. This choice cost us. Nobody to blame but Wenger.

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/amp/news/wenger-why-i-snubbed-barry-alonso

The Alonso example is always cited but him alone may not have been enough to elevate us. I think its factual that we needed more than just one player to complete the jigsaw- more like 3/4. Kante was affordable in terms of a fee but not wages. We did over rely on youth I think with a view to them seeing us out of our financial constraints but that failed. It was a poison choice because we really couldn't afford enough of those players (at the same time) who would make the difference. My point about player turnover is fair I think. Its easier to put an extension on a nice house than it is to build around a ruin. It would have helped if Gazidis had done better commercially too.

 

[Jakarta]

Wenger wasn’t the reason for our decline...it should be clear to everyone now.

Kroenke,Gazidis and the whole club setup has sucked the life out of this club.

I can’t recognise the Arsenal that I grew up loving anymore.

 

[Rimaal]

How meta do we want to get here, exactly? Doctorate thesis level on the rise and fall of the Gooner empire?

 

[baccy_man]

I think we left our heart and soul at Highbury, We don't seem to play the same way that we used to do,
It could be that the pitch and stadium were a bit smaller and the fans were closer to the pitch which was a bit more intimidating for the visiting teams.

 

[Oxeki]

The day Dein cut and ran.

 

[GoonerJay24]

I didn't agree with the way Wenger was hounded out but Emery did come in and managed to stop the decline. Before he left Arsenal were still above Manchester United.

The real decline has come this season under Artetas bad management. Now we'd be grateful to get back 5th position like 2018/19 and then build from there.

 

[Football Manager]

We have been playing boring football since 2013.

I know we had Cazorla and Sanchez in our team. But just having two technical players in the team can’t make the whole team play attractive football.

The football from 2007-2012 was amazing to watch. [Only ruined by bad luck on injuries, lack of squad depth, glory hunting defender (gallas), and also lack of a modern tactical setup (the players were too free).] In that era, we would control the match, attacking with beautiful passing. Every single attack was an art piece, we attack the opponent many many times in a match, and we did it every game. We only need to get rid of the non-technical players (such as walcott), and strengthen the defence, then our squad would be perfect.

However, we then started to buy less and less technical players in the market. And eventually we are left with just Cazorla and Sanchez (and now none). With these two, maybe we would create a few amazing/entertaining attack over a few games, because the team can’t keep hold of possession anymore. The frequency of beautiful play has become a lot less.

And now, we don’t have any good technical players in the team.

Our results have been declining since. Our football has become more and more boring.

 

[Garrincha]

 

[Dial Square 1886]

Personally, I blame Jeinny Lizarazo.

 

[SK___]

when someone revealed that the players are fed chicken & chips everyday... forgot who it was though