Would we have won the league if Cesc and Nasri stayed?

[Vela]

No because the deal was never done in pre-season? As Arsenal and Barcelona were negotiating for weeks. At one point Fabregas was about to fly to Barcelona for his medical but Pep phoned him and said to stay in England as there were still things needed to be sorted out between Arsenal and Barca over the deal. Arsenal rejected a couple of bids for Fabregas in the summer as they wanted more money so the deal wasn't done early in the summer. He didn't move until mid August. Look at Nasri he played against Liverpool in the Premiership this season for us and moved a few days later.

 

[DJ_Markstar]

No because the deal was never done in pre-season? As Arsenal and Barcelona were negotiating for weeks. At one point Fabregas was about to fly to Barcelona for his medical but Pep phoned him and said to stay in England as there were still things needed to be sorted out between Arsenal and Barca over the deal. Arsenal rejected a couple of bids for Fabregas in the summer as they wanted more money so the deal wasn't done early in the summer. He didn't move until mid August. Look at Nasri he played against Liverpool in the Premiership this season for us and moved a few days later.

Wow, you must be ITK or something. It's almost as if I've read all of this in a paper somewhere...

 

[future heroes]

The comparisons in the situation all point to Cesc being the better man.

I could not disagree more.

Vieira captained the team to trophies. Reckon Vieira could have captained this current team to trophies?

No.

Why not? Vieira captained us in the FA cup final 2005 where we were outplayed by Manchester United but still won on penalties with Vieira scoring the winning penalty. Sometimes you just have to defend for your life and get a result. We could do that with Vieira, but not with Fabregas.

There are no double standards. Being a club legend is about more than individual quality and making supreme passes.

Ever thought that maybe, just maybe, it was because the Fabregas sale was already done and they didn't want to lose £35m over an injury in pre-season?

City paid £25M for Nasri only a few days after he played for us against Liverpool. It was always clear that Nasri would leave in the summer, but he still played in the pre season for us. If it was about money, Nasri would not had played for us in pre season to decrease the injury risk.

Fabregas refused to play for Arsenal in pre-season.

Got any concrete proof?

It's interpretation at best , and you've thrown it out there as a fact.

There is no other logical way to interpret it.

I'm aware he was 'fit' enough to play. Yet there's nothing to suggest this was via his own choice. He played a season without *****ing after being denied his move, so I'll happily give him the benefit of the doubt that this would've continued.

There's no proof, just interpretation. It comes down to whether you will give him the benefit of the doubt, not based upon any type of proof.

There is everything to suggest that it was his own choice. Nasri played for us when being on the way out of the club. Fabregas was sulking in his last season at Arsenal and it all culminated with his disgraceful performance at Nou Camp.

Why would Wenger even mention in his interview prior to the Benfica game that Fabregas was fit to play if he had decided to not play him?

“I do not want to speak about the transfer of Fabregas because I have done that three years now in every press conference so I don't think there is any more need to add something,” said Wenger. “I love Fabregas and I want him to stay, that is basically it.

“Everybody is free to think what they want. We cannot stop people raising questions.

“He is just coming back from injury and is not ready to play in a game. But he is not injured.”
http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/wenger-why-key-men-are-missing-for-benfica

 

[a_fourteen]

cant believe fabregas fan-boys are still burning the flame.

 

[DJ_Markstar]

cant believe fabregas fan-boys are still burning the flame.

That's the best you've got to add to this debate?

 

[DJ_Markstar]

The comparisons in the situation all point to Cesc being the better man.

I could not disagree more.

Cool logic. Care to make an actual point as to why?

Vieira captained the team to trophies. Reckon Vieira could have captained this current team to trophies?

No.

Why not? *snip*

Seriously?

There are no double standards. Being a club legend is about more than individual quality and making supreme passes.

Apprently in some people's minds, it is about being in the right team at the right time and nothing more. Cesc gave as much on an individual basis to this club as many others who are seen as legends.

Ever thought that maybe, just maybe, it was because the Fabregas sale was already done and they didn't want to lose £35m over an injury in pre-season?

City paid £25M for Nasri only a few days after he played for us against Liverpool. It was always clear that Nasri would leave in the summer, but he still played in the pre season for us. If it was about money, Nasri would not had played for us in pre season to decrease the injury risk.

Different transfers happen at a different pace. Comparing the two situations is folly, the Fabregas sale was going to happen sooner or later, where I think Wenger genuinely wanted to keep Nasri - as his replacement in a slightly different role to the one Fabregas had for us.

Nasri then wanted out once Fabregas was clearly leaving, and so we sold him too.

 

[Vela]

Don't know why your saying stupid things like "you must be ITK or something". Just by reading football blogs, listening to podcasts etc.

Pep telling Fabregas to wait as the deal wasn't done yet.
<a class="postlink" href="http://myonlinearena.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/pep-guardiola-waits-on-fabregas-arrival.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://myonlinearena.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... rival.html</a>" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

June 24 2011 - Arsenal reject bid for Fabregas
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/jun/24/arsenal-barcelona-cesc-fabregas" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011 ... c-fabregas</a>" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Aug 5 2011 - Arsenal reject another bid for Fabregas
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2022659/Arsenal-reject-35m-bid-Barcelona-Cesc-Fabregas.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... regas.html</a>" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Aug 15 - Arsenal agree to sell Fabregas.
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/transfer-news/Arsenal-have-first-option-buy-Cesc-Fabregas-back-from-Barcelona-and-will-get-half-of-fee-if-he-moves-elsewhere-exclusive-story-article785934.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/transfe ... 85934.html</a>

Both clubs were in talks with each other for a while.

 

[ebouenolike]

Any thread relating to a hypothetical situation where Cesc stayed/came back seems to descend into whether he could be classed as a legend. It just depends on your definition of 'legend'.

Anyway, we wouldn't have won the league if Cesc/Nasri had stayed.

 

[DJ_Markstar]

Don't know why your saying stupid things like "you must be ITK or something". Just by reading football blogs, listening to podcasts etc.

Pep telling Fabregas to wait as the deal wasn't done yet.
<a class="postlink" href="http://myonlinearena.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/pep-guardiola-waits-on-fabregas-arrival.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://myonlinearena.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... rival.html</a>" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

June 24 2011 - Arsenal reject bid for Fabregas
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/jun/24/arsenal-barcelona-cesc-fabregas" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011 ... c-fabregas</a>" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Aug 5 2011 - Arsenal reject another bid for Fabregas
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2022659/Arsenal-reject-35m-bid-Barcelona-Cesc-Fabregas.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... regas.html</a>" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Aug 15 - Arsenal agree to sell Fabregas.
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/transfer-news/Arsenal-have-first-option-buy-Cesc-Fabregas-back-from-Barcelona-and-will-get-half-of-fee-if-he-moves-elsewhere-exclusive-story-article785934.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/transfe ... 85934.html</a>" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Both clubs were in talks with each other for a while.

I'm reading articles containing lots of spin and agenda and very little in the way of quotes that actually back up your opinion?

Please tell me I'm missing something?

To clarify what I said. I believe the deal was done before pre-season, not during it, hence it was Arsenal protecting the deal by not playing him, not Fabregas refusing to play. You've not given me anything that says otherwise, and so it is just opinion vs. opinion atm.

 

[a_fourteen]

cant believe fabregas fan-boys are still burning the flame.

That's the best you've got to add to this debate?

In my mind it's not even a debate.

 

[Spork]

Yea, saying that about EVERY match is far too much, there was plenty of times when he was lazy, although a lot of people argued that those were the times when he was carrying an injury and or overplayed.

Henry had plenty of lazy performances for the shirt too.

I wasn't the one saying that Cesc put 100% into every match.

There is no question about it, if it wasn't for Cesc in an uncountable amount of matches, we would have lost and been a lot worse off in the league, but to say that he put 100% into every match is a bit too much.

 

[DJ_Markstar]

Any thread relating to a hypothetical situation where Cesc stayed/came back seems to descend into whether he could be classed as a legend. It just depends on your definition of 'legend'.

I've no issue with him not being a legend in some people's eyes, but the definition needs to be consistent and fair across all "legends". What I have a problem with is the naming of external factors (quality of the overall squad) and using it as a rod to beat Cesc with.

Liam Brady, for instance, is an Arsenal legend. The parallels are quite interesting between he and Cesc.

both broke into the first team at 17
Both left at 24
Both won a single FA Cup in their time here
Both were highly technical midfield maestros
Both left for pastures green (non English clubs) when they left Arsenal

Anyway, we wouldn't have won the league if Cesc/Nasri had stayed.

Agreed, although we'd be a lot closer.

 

[ebouenolike]

Agreed Mark, but for some trophies and the team's success will blur the lines. I fully agree that people have to be consistent, as has been said Vieira's constant flirting has been ignored by many since despite him being in a team winning cups every year and Cesc has been made a villain for wanting to return to the club he supported and where all his mates were at.

And yes, we would be a LOT closer, but our frailties would more than likely still be here and as such we'd probably come third to the Manchester teams.

 

[scytheavatar]

[Agreed, although we'd be a lot closer.

Once again, if those 2 are still in the club we would have never brought the players we brought in summer. And we would probably be behind Chelsea in the league table by now.

 

[perspolis]

Cesc is an Arsenal legend?

so if we call players whose hearts are with another club our legends then what does that say about Arsenal?

and that is the state of affairs we've been witnessing since 2005.


We need an Arsenal team like the one who was outplayed for 120 minutes in the FA cup final against United and yet didn't lose and still managed to win on penalties... a TOUGH to beat kind of team... and in that team there'd be absolutely no place for the likes of Fabregas and Nasri...

Is Vieira an Arsenal legend?

Did he cry about a move every summer for years?

Then ask yourself the question: Why the double standards?

280 games... 4 FA cups... 3 premier league championships...

fabregas: 212 games... 1 FA cup


so yea, Viera is a legend...

 

[ebouenolike]

Kanu won 2 Premier Leagues and 2 FA Cups in much fewer games than Cesc, is he a bigger legend?

 

[ebouenolike]

so yea, Viera is a legend...

If you're going to argue this point, at least spell his name right.

 

[Rain Dance]

Kanu won 2 Premier Leagues and 2 FA Cups in much fewer games than Cesc, is he a bigger legend?

Cygan won 1 Premier League and 2 FA Cup, legend!

 

[jerome2158]

he'll be remembered as a legendary player, just not necessarily a legendary Arsenal player.


Think of all the great players we've had over the years. All the ones that immediately come to mind are most likely those who won trophies with us. Then you get to thinking about those who were great to watch but maybe missed out on success. That's where cesc will be. A second rate legend.

Vieira's considered a legend because of what he did with us, and that's despite the fact that he's now employed by an opponent. Do you think fans would feel the same if all we had to remember him by were some nice goals and passes or a lost final or two? Absolutely not.

 

[Glovegun]

True, but I still maintain that Cesc was let down by the players around him. And I lay that firmly at Wenger's door.

Vieira is a real Arsenal legend, but he seemed to agitate for a move every summer for a good four or five years, it's amazing we kept him as long as we did. Apparently wanted to move to Manchester United at one point.