Unai Emery: Adios

[Makingtrax]

Wait are you saying that before I bemoaned the fact that Newcastle got a result against City but now I've said that big teams will drop points where they aren't expected to. So I've somehow changed my tune?

How?

I can acknowledge that teams will drop points yet still be annoyed at the fact that we couldn't beat City while Newcastle did. They aren't mutually exclusive. As I recall the argument put forward then was that City have a better squad than we do so its no shame to lose to them. I just put forward the fact that Newcastle, a squad worse than City's and our's managed to beat them this season.

In fact my post in this thread only supports that argument. Weaker teams can beat stronger teams all the time because football isn't played on paper. The fact that we're not on City's level doesn't mean we can't get a result in a 1 off game. We did it in the FA Cup. Newcastle did it this season

For me, the squad strength argument only matters when you're talking about which team you expect to finish where. Its no excuse when it comes to individual matches, where anything can happen.

A season is made up individual matches. So if City end up top you know they’ve beaten most of the lower teams.

Whatever you view on team quality v organisation, chance also plays some part and so a team can be very much on top and still lose. We’ve all seen keepers make incredible saves and the woodwork playing it’s part and then the underdogs get a breakaway and a dubious penalty etc. But these games are not that common. City mostly win

That’s why to say Newcastle beat City, so should we then, is not necessarily true.

And the proof that Newcastle didn’t do through good organisation is evident in their terrible league position.

 

[sammy89]

The more I think about it, the more obvious it is that we need an ex-player as a manager (and Chelsea as well, by the way).

- Arsenal identity: attacking football, trust in creative players, trust in youth players (although these are difficult times for that, as discussed in other threads)
- Much bigger initial goodwill than for an outsider
- Probably has bigger respect as a former player, especially someone like Vieira who was a great internaltional player as well with lots of trophies

Obviously until we replace the bad performing players we cannot significantly progress, but this season our attack is only our two strikers' individual greatness, and Kolasinac's cut-backs. Absolutely no creativity.

Also, I would never again want to see us play with 5 defenders. It does not work. Our defense is not going to improve, because most of our mistakes are individual errors anyways.

All out attacking football is Wenger's identity. We were more of an Atletico style team before him and I think honestly that's our best chance of getting back to winning major trophies if Kroenke doesn't want to spend the money.

 

[Jae]

A season is made up individual matches. So if City end up top you know they’ve beaten most of the lower teams.

Whatever you view on team quality v organisation, chance also plays some part and so a team can be very much on top and still lose. We’ve all seen keepers make incredible saves and the woodwork playing it’s part and then the underdogs get a breakaway and a dubious penalty etc. But these games are not that common. City mostly win

That’s why to say Newcastle beat City, so should we then, is not necessarily true.

And the proof that Newcastle didn’t do through good organisation is evident in their terrible league position.

Thank you mate

 

[squallman]

A season is made up individual matches. So if City end up top you know they’ve beaten most of the lower teams.

Whatever you view on team quality v organisation, chance also plays some part and so a team can be very much on top and still lose. We’ve all seen keepers make incredible saves and the woodwork playing it’s part and then the underdogs get a breakaway and a dubious penalty etc. But these games are not that common. City mostly win

That’s why to say Newcastle beat City, so should we then, is not necessarily true.

And the proof that Newcastle didn’t do through good organisation is evident in their terrible league position.

I feel we misunderstand each other. I'm not saying we should beat City. I'm saying that we can beat City. The prevailing mood in that thread after the game was that it was a virtual impossibility for us to do so because of the respective squad costs.

I wholly and utterly reject that kind of thinking. Are the odds against us doing so? Sure. Unlikely? Yeah. Impossible because City's team cost more than ours? Not in this lifetime.

If we make the CL final and face City/Real Madrid/whoever, should we just accept defeat before kick off because City have a better squad than ours and mostly win a lot?

A one off match is a one-off match and of course, City will get more points than us, but I can't accept simply rolling over and accepting defeat because the odds are stacked against us

 

[progman07]

Other than the first one, how does any of that help us advance as a club.

This obsession with former players being managers here is just ridiculous. There isn;t one former player who could currently compete as a manager at this level.

NAME JUST ONE!

1. A positive goodwill from the fans obviously helps in atmosphere. It's a sad state of football where fans attack players on their instagram, or boo the manager's decisions after 3-4 months. People would hopefully give someone like Vieira more time.

2. Az ex-player can bring a sense of togetherness for the Club. Just remember back when we brought in Sol Campbell and Henry for a loan, the atmosphere went up a lot. When you look at someone like Bergkamp, you assume he would bring an experience of winning the league back to the Club. Still, I accept you measure the importance of this lower than me.

3. I'd give a chance to Vieira for example. Your question will be, what has he done so far? My answer would be, that although he does not have the achievements others have, but he has not started the job yesterday, he has the charisma and the football intelligence to be a competent manager. Maybe he would be a failure, I don't know, but he would probably give more confidence to the squad than they seem to have nowadays.
Hindsight is easy, but Arteta could be another option.

What I expected originally from Emery to build a more compact defense which can hold up teams better than Wenger's defenses. I'm disappointed so far, because we have spent 60-70 million on defensive additions in the summer, got in a goalkeeper, a CB, a RB and a DCM as well, but we still suffer as much as we did with the Wenger type of setup.
Yes, it's personnel issues, yes it's difficult to adapt, but do we see the attempt to defend more intelligently? We still give away loads of chances to the opponents, and do not seem to setup very differently to what we were used to under Wenger.

 

[Makingtrax]

I feel we misunderstand each other. I'm not saying we should beat City. I'm saying that we can beat City. The prevailing mood in that thread after the game was that it was a virtual impossibility for us to do so because of the respective squad costs.

I wholly and utterly reject that kind of thinking. Are the odds against us doing so? Sure. Unlikely? Yeah. Impossible because City's team cost more than ours? Not in this lifetime.

If we make the CL final and face City/Real Madrid/whoever, should we just accept defeat before kick off because City have a better squad than ours and mostly win a lot?

A one off match is a one-off match and of course, City will get more points than us, but I can't accept simply rolling over and accepting defeat because the odds are stacked against us

I don’t think anybody’s arguing that any team should roll over and accept defeat. Not sure where that’s come from. Even though the odds are long, as you agree, you can battle away and might get lucky.

The point is, if you don’t win you don’t go over the top and say it’s Emery’s fault, ‘if Newcastle beat them so can we’. Newcastle were very lucky that’s all. And anybody who thinks it’s anything other than luck, look at their position in the table.

 

[squallman]

I don’t think anybody’s arguing that any team should roll over and accept defeat. Not sure where that’s come from. Even though the odds are long, as you agree, you can battle away and might get lucky.

The point is, if you don’t win you don’t go over the top and say it’s Emery’s fault, ‘if Newcastle beat them so can we’. Newcastle were very lucky that’s all. And anybody who thinks it’s anything other than luck, look at their position in the table.

Fair enough, that was just the impression that I got from all of the squad cost posts. My apologies for misunderstanding.

Far as your second paragraph is concerned, lets agree to disagree. I don't believe that luck as it were, plays a huge role in football. Do you remember that beach ball goal Sunderland scored against Liverpool? It was a lucky winner, I will grant you. But Sunderland still had to keep Liverpool from scoring at the other end. Newcastle scored 2 and restricted City to 1 goal. You can call it luck and that would be fair because another day City might win 5-0. I call it a combination of a great Newcastle performance and a poor City performance.

Even if a team gets a lucky moment in a game, there are still 89 other minutes to contend with. United were extremely lucky when Lingard scored at Old Trafford, yet their luck didn't take them very far because we still scored 2 and should have won the game. You make your own luck in football and one flukey moment still has to have a good performance behind it else it will be for nought.

 

[Hope]

Emery is beign pragmatic and result orientated. We're putting out 'defensive' formations because as @BobP already explained we have absolutetly zero stability and quality at the back and no width apart from Iwobi and Kola. We're beign carried by world class strikers and Emery's ability to adapt to specific situations. It's all about CL football this season.

We're still showing a lot of progress, especially on an individual level. Some players look better and there seem to be more determination, motivation and belief shown by the team, especially in bigger games.

Absolutely nonsense.

Whats pragmatic about subbing a striker and play maker when you gotta game to win?

Where was this pragmatism against West Ham?

Terrific at Chelsea and pathetic the next game at Home???

Where is that determination that manager has brought as you say in away games????

 

[dka1]

I think Emery definitely needs time.

There are a few things that worry me though, but worries don't equate to wanting Emery out.

The biggest two things are the amount of chances we cede to the opposition and our lack of control in midfield.

We concede the chances precisely because of the lack of control in midfield and we lack control in midfield perhaps because of pragmatism?

I'm not really sure why, it's not like when we have all our best midfielders out there we are signifcantly better at controlling the midfield so I guess it does come to our style of play?

As mentioned; I'm not so sure, but unless we tighten up signifcantly at the back (I heard kegels are good for that), we need to start being more on the front foot and we should seek to try and control games in midfield and with possession more to protect our weak back line.

Ironically although boring we did do this a lot with Wenger (though it led to the much hated passing around the opposition box).

 

[JW10]

I think Emery definitely needs time.

There are a few things that worry me though, but worries don't equate to wanting Emery out.

I think this is the hardest bit to comprehend for some people. Agree with both points and am very disappointed by the quality of football he is bringing but that doesn't mean he must walk tomorrow ffs. Of course we will see where we end the season, it's largely dependent on Europa League for me but let's also not just be happy with 'anyone but Wenger'.

If we miss top 4 and fail to get to the Europa final then there will be big question marks, it will come down to the board to back him or to find someone who can do better with their awful budget, particularly now Sven has gone.

 

[Makingtrax]

Reread the ‘Numbers Game’ again, the last few days as I’ve had flu, where they analyse thousands of football matches.

There’s an interesting section where the authors argue that weaker players have a bigger effect on a team’s performance than stronger ones.

This means that a team like Arsenal have been doing the wrong thing by spending large sums on a few stars like the likes of Özil and Sanchez, whilst patching up defensive areas with freebies and cheaper players. This has been going on for years and is still happening now. . . PEA and Laca v Lich and Kola. Even defensive midfielders eg Elneny, Coquelin, and the return of Flamini.

Clubs would be better spreading what money they have throughout the team. And it suggests that Emery won’t progress until Sanllehi addresses the weakest links.

 

[Mo Britain]

Reread the ‘Numbers Game’ again, the last few days as I’ve had flu, where they analyse thousands of football matches.

There’s an interesting section where the authors argue that weaker players have a bigger effect on a team’s performance than stronger ones.

This means that a team like Arsenal have been doing the wrong thing by spending large sums on a few stars like the likes of Özil and Sanchez, whilst patching up defensive areas with freebies and cheaper players. This has been going on for years and is still happening now. . . PEA and Laca v Lich and Kola. Even defensive midfielders eg Elneny, Coquelin, and the return of Flamini.

Clubs would be better spreading what money they have throughout the team. And it suggest that Emery won’t progress until Sanllehi addresses the weakest links.

 

[yorch44]

Thierry at Monaco says hi.

People would've been discussing if his legacy as one of our greatest ever players would be tainted by his manegerial stint if things were playing out like they did at his now former job.

Hopefully that dissuaded Josh from still entertaining the ideia of a former player with little manegerial experience joining.

But Henry is so egocentric... he probably is still better than some actual players.

If you ask me, I would have given the chance to Arteta. Just watch what is Oler Gunnar doing with United, they look like a team managed by Ferguson, with the exact same players. That’s how much matters a manager.

 

[yorch44]

Fair enough, that was just the impression that I got from all of the squad cost posts. My apologies for misunderstanding.

Far as your second paragraph is concerned, lets agree to disagree. I don't believe that luck as it were, plays a huge role in football. Do you remember that beach ball goal Sunderland scored against Liverpool? It was a lucky winner, I will grant you. But Sunderland still had to keep Liverpool from scoring at the other end. Newcastle scored 2 and restricted City to 1 goal. You can call it luck and that would be fair because another day City might win 5-0. I call it a combination of a great Newcastle performance and a poor City performance.

Even if a team gets a lucky moment in a game, there are still 89 other minutes to contend with. United were extremely lucky when Lingard scored at Old Trafford, yet their luck didn't take them very far because we still scored 2 and should have won the game. You make your own luck in football and one flukey moment still has to have a good performance behind it else it will be for nought.

This! If the team plays like amateurs with no defense organization and good movements then is not about lucky... is about bad management. A good manager does what Solksjaer is doing with the same players Mourinho could not.

Emery is not a good manager for Arsenal for me, and we never will do well with him. At least not for winning titles. He has no Arsenal DNA... even with PSG money he has very bad performance at CL. We are in EL range only because of Laca and PEA.

 

[freeglennhelder2]

This! If the team plays like amateurs with no defense organization and good movements then is not about lucky... is about bad management. A good manager does what Solksjaer is doing with the same players Mourinho could not.

Emery is not a good manager for Arsenal for me, and we never will do well with him. At least not for winning titles. He has no Arsenal DNA... even with PSG money he has very bad performance at CL. We are in EL range only because of Laca and PEA.

I’m interested. Can you expand on what you mean by “he has no Arsenal DNA”. What are the characteristics?

 

[Makingtrax]

Fair enough, that was just the impression that I got from all of the squad cost posts. My apologies for misunderstanding.

Far as your second paragraph is concerned, lets agree to disagree. I don't believe that luck as it were, plays a huge role in football. Do you remember that beach ball goal Sunderland scored against Liverpool? It was a lucky winner, I will grant you. But Sunderland still had to keep Liverpool from scoring at the other end. Newcastle scored 2 and restricted City to 1 goal. You can call it luck and that would be fair because another day City might win 5-0. I call it a combination of a great Newcastle performance and a poor City performance.

Even if a team gets a lucky moment in a game, there are still 89 other minutes to contend with. United were extremely lucky when Lingard scored at Old Trafford, yet their luck didn't take them very far because we still scored 2 and should have won the game. You make your own luck in football and one flukey moment still has to have a good performance behind it else it will be for nought.

You can’t possibly believe that! You make your own luck has always been a fallacy. You can’t make chance events otherwise they wouldn’t be chance. There are dozens of things that happen in a football match that aren’t anything to do with the manager or organisation. Like the team that attacks once and hit’s a rubbish strike which rebounds off a defender and in. Or the ref that mistakenly sees a penalty that clearly wasn’t or mistakenly sends off a player for an innocuous challenge.

Here’s the point, the Premier league is tight there are no easy matches. Small events can make a difference. Even City, with their squad, will lose occasionally, like they did to Newcastle. But to say the squad cost theory is nonsense or the lower team’s manager outplayed the other manager just plain wrong. If Newcastle had a well organised team they wouldn’t be near the bottom of the league.

 

[squallman]

You can’t possibly believe that! You make your own luck has always been a fallacy. You can’t make chance events otherwise they wouldn’t be chance. There are dozens of things that happen in a football match that aren’t anything to do with the manager or organisation. Like the team that attacks once and hit’s a rubbish strike which rebounds off a defender and in. Or the ref that mistakenly sees a penalty that clearly wasn’t or mistakenly sends off a player for an innocuous challenge.

Sure a team can only attack once and score. But they still need to keep the opposition out at the other end. We got 1 goal at Anfield, but let in 5 at the other end. Organisation throughout a game still matters because one swallow doesn't make a summer. I agree a mistaken red card can change a game but that is its own situation. But when a team wins a match 11 vs 11, no bullshit red cards or penalties, that just speaks to quality on the day.

I'm not saying that Newcastle are a better team than City or that Rafa is better than Guardiola. Just that on the day of the match, anything can happen regardless of squad cost. That's football.

Here’s the point, the Premier league is tight there are no easy matches. Small events can make a difference. Even City, with their squad, will lose occasionally, like they did to Newcastle. But to say the squad cost theory is nonsense or the lower team’s manager outplayed the other manager just plain wrong. If Newcastle had a well organised team they wouldn’t be near the bottom of the league.

I'm talking about individual matches, not the entire league table. I've said about 5 times now I accept that clubs who spend more, in truth and fact wage bill is more important, anyway rich clubs will always end up above clubs with less cash.

That isn't my bone of contention. The part bolded is just plain wrong. You can't just dismiss a manager and team's effort on the day as being just luck. Sometimes a lower team's manager can best a better manager. It happens, that's football. It happened to Wenger too, sometimes your opposite number just prepares his team better and gets his tactics spot on.

Newcastle's quality means they're at the bottom of the league but at the end of the day every player in their squad is a pro footballer. It isn't beyond the realm of possibility that just for 90 minutes, just once they can put in a good performance and win a game.

Every time a big team loses isn't down to bad luck. Sometimes you just get beaten by the better team on the day. Simple as that

 

[Tourbillion]

I've lost sight of the points in the posts on this page.

 

[Xanth]

https://www.getfootballnewsfrance.com/2019/thomas-tuchel-the-anti-emery-antidote/

Wow, they hate him.

 

[Preacher]

https://www.getfootballnewsfrance.com/2019/thomas-tuchel-the-anti-emery-antidote/

Wow, they hate him.

They will quickly change the tune if Tuchel won't manage to win CL during his contract tenure.