Arsène Wenger: Same Old Class

[Wilshere10]

Sir Alex Ferguson has defended his long-time nemesis Arséne Wenger, who he claims has been under “ridiculous pressure” at Arsenal.

“At the moment, of course, with the ridiculous situation of the pressure Arséne is under, I just wonder if they realise the job he’s done,” the Scot told Sky Sports.

“The most amazing thing about him is this: he has come through a forest of criticism for months now, and has never bowed. He has seen it right through, he has shown a determination, a stubbornness. I think when you look at that, it’s a quality, and I’m not sure they’ll ever get another manager like that.

“It’s quite easy to say ‘Get rid of him’, but who do you get? Who do you get in to keep that club the way they are for the next 20 years?

“I really feel sorry for him because I think he’s shown outstanding qualities, and I think he has handled the whole situation. I don’t know many that have done that.”

Of course Fergie wants him to stay. Wenger will be no threat to Man Utd in the coming years, why would he want him to go?

 

[Mark Tobias]

The trouble is you see Ramsey play like he did yesterday and you think he can propel us to to the top, like many AM posters do. But he can't keep it up. It's a hard decision to sell talented players that breakdown and Wenger won't or can't cut his losses with these players.

But that is why many of us believe he is not the right man for the job. Or at least one of the reasons.

 

[shoom]

His post-match comments are infuriating. Mixed in with the usual platitudes are some excruciating examples of deflection, blame-shifting and outright delusion.

On losing 9 games:

'Yes but we also won 23. In the Invincibles season we won 26 so we are not far away'

The bare-faced cheek to draw any comparison between this ****show of a season and our greatest ever is just astonishing.

On whether his contract should have been sorted out sooner:

'You have been at the games. You cannot say it has been a positive environment for the players'.

**** off. The arrogance to suggest that a couple of Wenger out banners will so panic our players at the prospect of having to represent their club without him at the helm that they fall to pieces is an insult to us and them.

 

[FinnGooner]

So what is the real reason Wenger can't win the league. It's the same pattern.

The long running streaks he goes on shows it's not tactics, player abiliity, bottling, mentality . . . . but player consistency.

We broke down again and went on a losing streak when our midfield collapsed. Elneny, Xhaka, Ramsey, Cazorla . . all out at the same time. He can never keep the team fit and on the pitch throughout a season. . . and keep the momentum going like Chelsea.

Once the monentum goes it takes a lot to get it back.

Well that's one way to look at it but the way I see it is that the tactics play a huge part in consistency. When a team is tactically sound and well drilled to perform as a collective, the results will be more consistent. Injuries matter less because no matter who plays a certain position the job description is clear. The form of the day of an individual player matters less as well because when detailed game plan is in place the players have to improvise less.

Imo Wenger relies on the creativity and improvisation of the players too much, which shows as inconsistency. Once the flow is there the players are filled with confidence and they make right choices. When the the flow isn't there they **** up.

Antonio Conte said it's ok to give creative freedom to Messi because he is good enough to get it right just by himself but he also said most players aren't good enough for that sort of freedom and therefore it is his job to provide the players and level of "automation".

If you look at Sp**s, it's remarkable how little their game was effected when both of their regular full backs were replaced by the secondary options. No inconsistency, results and the game itself pretty much stayed the same.

When I say tactics I mean the way the the team works as a collective and a game plan. How to use the weaknesses of the other team. It's not just a formation.

Wenger of course understands formations and tactics in general but he doesn't seem to believe in detailed position spesific tactical approach and so called positional play.

So imo the inconsistency in indeed partly resulted by tactical shortcomings. But basically it's two sides of the same coin. You could also say the players are inconsistent because they are. Many of he players we have are not good enough to be consistent with the kind of freedom they are given. Back in the day we had players that were. Of course in that environment the Wenger approach was correct. Right now these players need much more detailed job descriptions. We have ****ing Aaron Ramsey running around like he's Iniesta ffs!

 

[notafan]

The trouble is you see Ramsey play like he did yesterday and you think he can propel us to to the top, like many AM posters do. But he can't keep it up. It's a hard decision to sell talented players that breakdown and Wenger won't or can't cut his losses with these players.

Concerning Ramsey, Wilshere, Walcott etc.

Has there ever been a player bought by Wenger who has markedly improved under his managership? I can think of one - Thierry Henry. But any others?

The impression I get, as a relatively unknowledgeable outsider, is that most of the young players he has brought in to Arsenal have actually regressed. Walcott, for example, seemed a better player for Southampton, than he is at present for Arsenal.

Arsène cannot escape responsibility for this. Either there is something wrong with his training methods, which don't help young players to develop. Or perhaps he has a very bad eye in the transfer market, and misses out on those players who have a lot of potential for improvement (Kante in French Ligue 2 for example).

Compare this with e.g. Klopp. Look at Wijnaldum, a bit of a flop at Newcastle, now much better at Liverpool. Lallana, underwhelming under Brendan Rodgers, now one of the best players in his position in the EPL. And at what Conte has done with Victor Moses.

 

[Mark Tobias]

Concerning Ramsey, Wilshere, Walcott etc.

Has there ever been a player bought by Wenger who has markedly improved under his managership? I can think of one - Thierry Henry. But any others?

As much as I want Wenger gone this is a blatant lie.

Koscielny
Fabregas
Bellerin
Cole

There are lots of examples of players improving under Wenger. He is not ruthless enough which is why his failed as attempts are so easily highlighted.

 

[Makingtrax]

Well that's one way to look at it but the way I see it is that the tactics play a huge part in consistency. When a team is tactically sound and well drilled to perform as a collective, the results will be more consistent. Injuries matter less because no matter who plays a certain position the job description is clear. The form of the day of an individual player matters less as well because when detailed game plan is in place the players have to improvise less.

Imo Wenger relies on the creativity and improvisation of the players too much, which shows as inconsistency. Once the flow is there the players are filled with confidence and they make right choices. When the the flow isn't there they **** up.

Antonio Conte said it's ok to give creative freedom to Messi because he is good enough to get it right just by himself but he also said most players aren't good enough for that sort of freedom and therefore it is his job to provide the players and level of "automation".

If you look at Sp**s, it's remarkable how little their game was effected when both of their regular full backs were replaced by the secondary options. No inconsistency, results and the game itself pretty much stayed the same.

When I say tactics I mean the way the the team works as a collective and a game plan. How to use the weaknesses of the other team. It's not just a formation.

Wenger of course understands formations and tactics in general but he doesn't seem to believe in detailed position spesific tactical approach and so called positional play.

So imo the inconsistency in indeed partly resulted by tactical shortcomings. But basically it's two sides of the same coin. You could also say the players are inconsistent because they are. Many of he players we have are not good enough to be consistent with the kind of freedom they are given. Back in the day we had players that were. Of course in that environment the Wenger approach was correct. Right now these players need much more detailed job descriptions. We have ****ing Aaron Ramsey running around like he's Iniesta ffs!

How many times have we been calendar year champions or go on a long unbeaten run. Or have the best defensive record in the league. All signs that tactics are not the issue and that the team can play as a collective. These features wouldn't be possible with players doing their own thing.

But we can't sustain a period when it matters, i.e.for a full playing season. Back end of one, start of another and we're brilliant . . . why because there's a rest in between. It's no good being calendar year champions, there's no prize.

We break down when the going gets tough, usually winter time when some or all of Ramsey, Walcott, Cazorla, Welbeck, Ox, Coq etc have periods out. The team is disrupted and even when they come back they take weeks to get match fit again. Add to that Xhaka's suspensions and you have one bleak period with potentially league winning ones either side.

 

[allegro]

So what is the real reason Wenger can't win the league. It's the same pattern.

The long running streaks he goes on shows it's not tactics, player abiliity, bottling, mentality . . . . but player consistency.

We broke down again and went on a losing streak when our midfield collapsed. Elneny, Xhaka, Ramsey, Cazorla . . all out at the same time. He can never keep the team fit and on the pitch throughout a season. . . and keep the momentum going like Chelsea.

Once the monentum goes it takes a lot to get it back.

Mate you talk utter BS

Its not tactics? Wenger has now admitted he changed tactics too late. Tactics is the one you actually fall down on straight away. If anything has been proven Wenger dont do tactics!

Players ability? He still wants to play the 'Barce way' when even they are struggling to replicate their success with players like Messi, Neymar, Suarez etc etc.

Mentality? has even been something our own players questioned after some of our appalling performances (Ox, Wally, Sanchez. BFG etc).

Bottling? no we never bottle anything. Its just those 'horrible' fans, pundits, opposing team players and press that make that cr%p up...nasty nasty people!

Its just down to player consistency and losing Elneny, Xhaka and RAMSEY!!!

 

[4R5Emaniac]

Concerning Ramsey, Wilshere, Walcott etc.

Has there ever been a player bought by Wenger who has markedly improved under his managership? I can think of one - Thierry Henry. But any others?

The impression I get, as a relatively unknowledgeable outsider, is that most of the young players he has brought in to Arsenal have actually regressed. Walcott, for example, seemed a better player for Southampton, than he is at present for Arsenal.

Arséne cannot escape responsibility for this. Either there is something wrong with his training methods, which don't help young players to develop. Or perhaps he has a very bad eye in the transfer market, and misses out on those players who have a lot of potential for improvement (Kante in French Ligue 2 for example).

Compare this with e.g. Klopp. Look at Wijnaldum, a bit of a flop at Newcastle, now much better at Liverpool. Lallana, underwhelming under Brendan Rodgers, now one of the best players in his position in the EPL. And at what Conte has done with Victor Moses.

Sorry but this is total nonsense. He has an absolutely superb record with improving and unlocking potential of players. The game has moved on terms of preparation and fitness which is why we can't cope with the backdated methods of his in comparison the current top managers. Also I think he is not the best at developing positional play tactically and I'm not a fan of his vision of the game but his record with a huge number of players is excellent.

 

[notafan]

As much as I want Wenger gone this is a blatant lie.

Koscielny
Fabregas
Bellerin
Cole

There are lots of examples of players improving under Wenger. He is not ruthless enough which is why his failed as attempts are so easily highlighted.

Thanks for the information, which I was asking for. I wasn't intending a "blatant lie", but seeking such enlightenment as you have provided. And take your informed comments on board.

I am still a bit puzzled at the lack of development (?) of Walcott and Wilshere, and to some extent Ramsey. Perhaps this is yet another example of where Arsène is no longer the great manager he once was.

 

[notafan]

Sorry but this is total nonsense. He has an absolutely superb record with improving and unlocking potential of players. The game has moved on terms of preparation and fitness which is why we can't cope with the backdated methods of his in comparison the current top managers. Also I think he is not the best at developing positional play tactically and I'm not a fan of his vision of the game but his record with a huge number of players is excellent.

See my reply to Mark Tobias above.

 

[Makingtrax]

Mate you talk utter BS

Its not tactics? Wenger has now admitted he changed tactics too late. Tactics is the one you actually fall down on straight away. If anything has been proven Wenger dont do tactics!

Players ability? He still wants to play the 'Barce way' when even they are struggling to replicate their success with players like Messi, Neymar, Suarez etc etc.

Mentality? has even been something our own players questioned after some of our appalling performances (Ox, Wally, Sanchez. BFG etc).

Bottling? no we never bottle anything. Its just those 'horrible' fans, pundits, opposing team players and press that make that cr%p up...nasty nasty people!

Its just down to player consistency and losing Elneny, Xhaka and RAMSEY!!!

The thing is, in my defence, I try to write well reasoned bullsh*t, produced by independent thought.

Wenger changed tactics to break a losing cycle and make a psychological change. I've never seen any theory or study to prove that one formation is better than another. They all have advantages and disadvantages. I did read a paper once that said 433 offered the possibility of more triangles though, but I think it was debunked.

 

[4R5Emaniac]

Thanks for the information, which I was asking for. I wasn't intending a "blatant lie", but seeking such enlightenment as you have provided. And take your informed comments on board.

I am still a bit puzzled at the lack of development (?) of Walcott and Wilshere, and to some extent Ramsey. Perhaps this is yet another example of where Arséne is no longer the great manager he once was.

You need to look at the talent level of the players. Wilshere apart they are technically horrendous. Walcott has his entire existence and relevance to thank Wenger for.

 

[Mark Tobias]

The thing is, in my defence, I try to write well reasoned bullsh*t, produced by independent thought.

Wenger changed tactics to break a losing cycle and make a psychological change. I've never seen any theory or study to prove that one formation is better than another. They all have advantages and disadvantages. I did read a paper once that said 433 offered the possibility of more triangles though, but I think it was debunked.

I know this comment was in jest but it is still painful to read.
"Wenger changed tactics to break a losing cycle and make a psychological change" No, he didn't. He changed because the pressure was on and every man and his dog were screaming formation change... See next point.
"They all have advantages and disadvantages" Yes, they do. Too bad our manager has no idea which formation his squad would be best suited to. That was the problem the whole season. Using a squad of players in the wrong positions all season until fans and media screamed for change.

Wenger changed nothing by himself. Stop putting it down to some AW masterstroke when in fact nothing could be farther from the truth.

 

[notafan]

You need to look at the talent level of the players. Wilshere apart they are technically horrendous. Walcott has his entire existence and relevance to thank Wenger for.

I am not sure about that. I remember Walcott being quite a star at Southampton, but perhaps that's not saying much!

But this again calls into question Wenger's eye for potential - missing out on such as Kante and Mahrez, and instead signing players with little technical ability. And as he has made it quite clear that he is, and will be, in total control of all footballing matters at Arsenal, he cannot blame it all on the scouts.

 

[scytheavatar]

Sorry but this is total nonsense. He has an absolutely superb record with improving and unlocking potential of players. The game has moved on terms of preparation and fitness which is why we can't cope with the backdated methods of his in comparison the current top managers. Also I think he is not the best at developing positional play tactically and I'm not a fan of his vision of the game but his record with a huge number of players is excellent.

And how many of our players could you say have actually improved this season compared to last?

 

[Kingslayer]

Thanks for the information, which I was asking for. I wasn't intending a "blatant lie", but seeking such enlightenment as you have provided. And take your informed comments on board.

I am still a bit puzzled at the lack of development (?) of Walcott and Wilshere, and to some extent Ramsey. Perhaps this is yet another example of where Arséne is no longer the great manager he once was.

Injuries blighted both Wilshere and Ramsey (though, admittedly, he didn't kick on from his 2014 form).

Walcott is just... Walcott.

 

[4R5Emaniac]

The thing is, in my defence, I try to write well reasoned bullsh*t, produced by independent thought.

Wenger changed tactics to break a losing cycle and make a psychological change. I've never seen any theory or study to prove that one formation is better than another. They all have advantages and disadvantages. I did read a paper once that said 433 offered the possibility of more triangles though, but I think it was debunked.

Formations are just a structural framework highly dependent on the players, tactics and the opposition. You can't prove this formation is better than that on its own, yes.

That said variations of 4-3-3 and 4-4-2 diamond are the most successful. Its easy to fit in most profile of players and dominate the ball. I say variations since Johan Cruff is popular for 4-3-3 but he interpreted as being a diamond. The 3-3 could be viewed as an expanded diamond.

Remember opening the "Tactics Talk" thread with my analysis that diamond in three stages is the way to go in term of formation. But of course nobody gave a **** apart from Lancelot who I miss dearly.

 

[Mark Tobias]

I am not sure about that. I remember Walcott being quite a star at Southampton, but perhaps that's not saying much!

But this again calls into question Wenger's eye for potential - missing out on such as Kante and Mahrez, and instead signing players with little technical ability. And as he has made it quite clear that he is, and will be, in total control of all footballing matters at Arsenal, he cannot blame it all on the scouts.

This isn't FIFA kid. You don't just hit the X button five times and voila, new signing. The player has to ACTUALLY want to play there....

Mahrez, is that the guy who had a one season wonder for some small club and nobody heard a peep out of all season? Yeah, great addition that would have been.

 

[FinnGooner]

How many times have we been calendar year champions or go on a long unbeaten run. Or have the best defensive record in the league. All signs that tactics are not the issue and that the team can play as a collective. These features wouldn't be possible with players doing their own thing.

But we can't sustain a period when it matters, i.e.for a full playing season. Back end of one, start of another and we're brilliant . . . why because there's a rest in between. It's no good being calendar year champions, there's no prize.

We break down when the going gets tough, usually winter time when some or all of Ramsey, Walcott, Cazorla, Welbeck, Ox, Coq etc have periods out. The team is disrupted and even when they come back they take weeks to get match fit again. Add to that Xhaka's suspensions and you have one bleak period with potentially league winning ones either side.

The way I see it is that injuries have way too much effect on how we perform because the tactical backbone isn't strong enough. Of course when we are injury free our collective play is better because we can field a team where the players know each other better. They know how the other guy plays the game when given freedom. These are the situations when we go on decent runs. At the beginning of a season when players haven't been injured yet and at the end of the season when our players come back from injuries. That enables the decent calender year runs. Every team would have difficulties results-wise with the amounts of injuries we've had but to me it seems it effects our identity and general play way too much.