Mikel Arteta: Aston La Vista To The Title?

[2Smokeyy]

Personally, I fancied us less against the big teams this season than last from the start. The reason is because we're now looking to systematically dominate these teams which I think is approach we should focus on for long term improvement. But to do that to these teams you have to be very, very good; playing a more counter attacking style probably had a greater chance of getting us return in these games tbh. We were more dangerous to these teams in the cup run and last season even though we're a better team now.

The thing is right now we only have one style of play and if that doesn’t work then we’re ******. It’s a very risky strategy especially when the individuals we’re heavily placing all of our trust in are inconsistent in terms of form.

The teams we’re aspiring to compete with (City and Liverpool) in the future are able to do both - they can dominate games, soak up pressure by passing the ball around plus they’re very dangerous on the counter attack. Arteta had the chance to persist in blending these two styles into our team as he had the tools available to do so but he clearly lacked patience.

 

[samspade]

The thing is right now we only have one style of play and if that doesn’t work then we’re ******. It’s a very risky strategy especially when the individuals we’re heavily placing all of our trust in are inconsistent in terms of form.

The teams we’re aspiring to compete with (City and Liverpool) in the future are able to do both - they can dominate games, soak up pressure by passing the ball around plus they’re very dangerous on the counter attack. Arteta had the chance to persist in blending these two styles into our team as he had the tools available to do so but he clearly lacked patience.

I agree we should look to soak up pressure more but I disagree that Liverpool and City are prepared to adopt back foot strategies. They make tweaks and they are dangerous on the counter but they always look to dominate the other team; Klopp, Guardiola and Arteta are all extremely stubborn.

 

[Rex Stone]

If we get top 4 it’s obviously immaterial but I’ll die on the hill that Guendouzi was a far superior option to Lokonga in the squad and a top manager would make it work.

 

[2Smokeyy]

I agree we should look to soak up pressure more but I disagree that Liverpool and City are prepared to adopt back foot strategies. They make tweaks and they are dangerous on the counter but they always look to dominate the other team; Klopp, Guardiola and Arteta are all extremely stubborn.

I wouldn’t say it’s a back foot strategy that they implement, I don’t think they even need to since their CBs are usually camped on the half way line. A prime example of that is that clip I posted, Antonio, Fornals etc get in behind VVD and Konate during that match…Darwin Nunez was trying to do the same during the week too but Liverpool are most dangerous during that phase to spring on the counter.

It’s a bit of a trap for the opposition and they’ve been very successful at luring teams in then having TAA play the ball over the top to Mane, Salah, Jota etc. They done that tactic countless times against Benfica.

Check this:

 

[Oxeki]

Not many say that he is god either. Of course i was exxagerating. But the point that some people went on and on about comparison between arteta and klopp when that was never the point indicates that people were responding to their idea of the category which they put the poster in rather than the post itself.

We've seen Liverpool get where they are now after being at a bit of a nadir. If they can do it why shouldn't we?

Because they have a genuine world class manager but we don't even know what we yet.

Time for some long-ish analysis, get ready.

How can you not know what type of manager we have yet? Because of absolute outcomes and money spent by our manager? Or is there something else?

For the purpose of this analysis, I will look at spend mainly. Touching a bit on process, although not much.

Lets take the world class manager, Klopp, you refer to, and look at his actual spending and building of his elite team.

By the way... I think this is an interesting insight into what it takes to be an elite manager. Its not an attack on you @Oxeki. I do think you ask an interesting question thus I have taken some time to do this.

And for the record, net spend doesnt diminish the actual amount of money buying players IMO. Monies recovered doesnt make the players bought play better. In fact, monies recovered has nothing to do with the manager anymore. Looking at you @Makingtrax

My conclusions from this brief analysis. To be rated as an elite manager, and build and elite team, you need two key ingredients...

• Time to build your elite team, with your players.
• Money to build your elite team, with your players.

Looking at Klopp v Arteta re the above two factors, I can see Klopp's experience shine through, with the delivery of the Champions League in under 4 years. For the shambles Liverpool were when he came in, that is magnificent management. And yes, SAS + Coutinho was not a complete Liverpool team.

A second conclusion I draw from this, is how Klopp methodically built his side, having a continued process from start to "finish". Arteta on the other hand stopped and started during his time here, another sign of his inexperience.

A third conclusion. I also think that this shows we should be retiring this chequebook manager argument that is popular around this forum. Every successful manager today is a chequebook manager of some sort.

A fourth conclusion. Look at the money spent and league position attained. 8th to 4th in his first full season for under 64 million is class. Klopp then spent just under 159 million and went from 4th to 4th from end 17 to end 18. Then he spent another 161 million to go from 4th to 2nd from end 18 to end 19. Imagine if he was the Arsenal manager with those returns

A fifth conclusion... this analysis is incomplete in that it only compares what Klopp has spent to get Liverpool to the very top. He is a chequebook manager as well yes, BUT its important that his figures be compared with other big spenders in the game. That will give us more perspective on how effective he has been in the market, in comparison to others.

Also, very important... this analysis is not done in defense of "my hero Arteta". Far from that. I think we need to be honest with ourselves and our feelings towards the manager. Its absolutely ok to say you dont like the dude and that's your reason to have him gone, and that's it.

I think lets not look for excuses here about Arteta being a chequebook manager, doesnt know how to manage players, gives players away, etc. Pep wastes money on players, and if I dig enough Im sure Ill find Klopp doing the exact same thing. Another high profile example of a possible waste of money - Tuchel and Lukaku.

Anyway, lets go.

Sourced from Jurgen Klopp's list of LFC transfers

Jurgen Klopp

Liverpool, 8 October 2015 - present (6 years, 5 months and 30 days)

Trophies won

Competition won	Season	Money spent (running total)	Time from appointment
Champions League	2018/19	388,850,000	3 yrs, 7 mon, 25 days
Super Cup	2019	388,850,000	3 yrs, 10 mon, 7 days
FIFA CWC	2019	388,850,000	4 yrs, 2 mon, 14 days
Premier League	2019/20	401,900,000	4 yrs, 7 mon, 24 days
EFL Cup	2021/22	549,050,000	6 yrs, 4 mon, 20 days

Summary of money spent, total £549,050,000

Season	League position finished	Season spend	Running total spend
2015/16	8th	5,400,000	5,400,000
2016/17	4th	63,900,000	69,300,000
2017/18	4th	158,000,000	227,300,000
2018/19	2nd	161,550,000	388,850,000
2019/20	1st	13,050,000	401,900,000
2020/21	2nd	76,150,000	478,050,000
2021/22	TBC	71,000,000	549,050,000

Detail of transfers below, for audit purposes.

Spoiler

43 Players Bought: £549,050,000

I've added the season at the end to help with season spend and running total spend.

PLAYER​	FROM	FEE	DATE	SEASON
Marko Grujić	Red Star Belgrade	£5,100,000	6th Jan, 2016	2015/16
Kamil Grabara	Ruch Chorzow	£300,000	15th Jan, 2016	2015/16
Sadio Mane	Southampton	£30,000,000	28th Jun, 2016	2016/17
Loris Karius	Mainz 05	£4,700,000	1st Jul, 2016	2016/17
Joel Matip	Schalke 04	£0	1st Jul, 2016	2016/17
Liam Millar	Fulham	£0	1st Jul, 2016	2016/17
Ragnar Klavan	FC Augsburg	£4,200,000	20th Jul, 2016	2016/17
Alex Manninger	Free agent	£0	22nd Jul, 2016	2016/17
Georginio Wijnaldum	Newcastle United	£25,000,000	22nd Jul, 2016	2016/17
Nat Phillips	Bolton	£0	1st Aug, 2016	2016/17
Mohammed Salah	AS Roma	£34,000,000	22nd Jun, 2017	2017/18
Dominic Solanke	Chelsea	£6,000,000	1st Jul, 2017	2017/18
Jack Bearne	Notts County	£0	1st Jul, 2017	2017/18
Andy Robertson	Hull City	£8,000,000	21st Jul, 2017	2017/18
Vitezslav Jaros	Slavia Prague	£0	1st Aug, 2017	2017/18
Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain	Arsenal	£35,000,000	31st Aug, 2017	2017/18
Yasser Larouci	Le Havre	£0	1st Nov, 2017	2017/18
Virgil van Dijk	Southampton	£75,000,000	1st Jan, 2018	2017/18
Tony Gallacher	Falkirk	£0	1st Jan, 2018	2017/18
Fabinho	AS Monaco	£39,300,000	28th May, 2018	2018/19
Naby Keïta	RB Leipzig	£52,500,000	1st Jun, 2018	2018/19
Bobby Duncan	Manchester City	£0	1st Jun, 2018	2018/19
Isaac Christie-Davies	Chelsea	£0	1st Jul, 2018	2018/19
Xherdan Shaqiri	Stoke City	£13,500,000	13th Jul, 2018	2018/19
Alisson Becker	AS Roma	£56,250,000	19th Jul, 2018	2018/19
Ki-Jana Hoever	Ajax	£0	1st Aug, 2018	2018/19
Billy Koumetio	Orleans FC	£0	1st Aug, 2018	2018/19
Ben Winterbottom	Blackburn Rovers	£0	30th Mar, 2019	2018/19
Sepp van den Berg	PEC Zwolle	£1,800,000	1st Jul, 2019	2019/20
Harvey Elliott	Fulham	£4,000,000	28th Jul, 2019	2019/20
Adrián	Free agent	£0	5th Aug, 2019	2019/20
Andy Lonergan	Free agent	£0	12th Aug, 2019	2019/20
Takumi Minamino	Red Bull Salzburg	£7,250,000	1st Jan, 2020	2019/20
Joe Hardy	Brentford	£0	5th Jan, 2020	2019/20
Melkamu Frauendorf	Hoffenheim	£0	1st Aug, 2020	2020/21
Kostas Tsimikas	Olympiacos	£11,750,000	10th Aug, 2020	2020/21
Thiago Alcantara	Bayern Munich	£20,000,000	18th Sep, 2020	2020/21
Diogo Jota	Wolves	£41,000,000	19th Sep, 2020	2020/21
Marcelo Pitaluga	Fluminese	£1,800,000	9th Oct, 2020	2020/21
Ben Davies	Preston North End	£500,000	1st Feb, 2021	2020/21
Kaide Gordon	Derby County	£1,100,000	1st Feb, 2021	2020/21
Ibrahima Konaté	RB Leipzig	£36,000,000	28th May, 2021	2021/22
Luis Diaz	Porto	£35,000,000	30th Jan, 2022	2021/22

This was what prompted the argument. No one randomly brought out the comparison. My post was in reply to @Blood on the Tracks who said if Liverpool can get back back to being great again, so can we.

 

[samspade]

I wouldn’t say it’s a back foot strategy that they implement, I don’t think they even need to since their CBs are usually camped on the half way line. A prime example of that is that clip I posted, Antonio, Fornals etc get in behind VVD and Konate during that match…Darwin Nunez was trying to do the same during the week too but Liverpool are most dangerous during that phase to spring on the counter.

It’s a bit of a trap for the opposition and they’ve been very successful at luring teams in then having TAA play the ball over the top to Mane, Salah, Jota etc. They done that tactic countless times against Benfica.

Good point but we’ve been hitting bukayo and gabi pretty fast recently, we just havent been able convert it into goals. I actually think going for a back foot strategy against the big boys would have benefited us more this season though. That said, it’s a useful experience to go toe to toe with them too.

 

[Rasmi]

If we get top 4 it’s obviously immaterial but I’ll die on the hill that Guendouzi was a far superior option to Lokonga in the squad and a top manager would make it work.

He destroyed guendouzzi value after the Brighton game and I have maintained how he dealt with it showed inexperience and ego. It doesn’t help he was praised for it by stupid pundits and fans. Oh he showed who the boss is. Arts don’t accept nonsense

All it did was just like Auba made his position at the club untrainable and destroyed any negotiations advantage you had talking to anyone. An experienced manager would have decided in his mind this player is not for me, but publicly protected him and even used him until end of the season and sell him

 

[2Smokeyy]

Good point but we’ve been hitting bukayo and gabi pretty fast recently, we just havent been able convert it into goals. I actually think going for a back foot strategy against the big boys would have benefited us more this season though. That said, it’s a useful experience to go toe to toe with them too.

Yeah, I’ve noticed that. It would actually be nice if we could have a mixture of different approaches and just adapt them as required throughout the 90 minutes but that probably comes with experience, players taking responsibility and sensing which way the game is going. I think that’s how we reach the next level, I don’t buy into this theory that some fans have made themselves believe that just signing a CF will transform us into a team that will compete with City and Liverpool. Of course there will be an improvement but not as much as people are assuming.

I have watched us in quite a few games this season whilst we’re leading and just thought, why are we going long and giving the ball back to the opposition…just knock it around in defence and get them frustrated, the opposition will eventually come out and we can hit them on the break. After being with Pep for so long, I thought Arteta would have picked up on how to take the sting out of a game as City and even his great Barcelona team were excellent at doing this.

 

[Trilly]

The thing is right now we only have one style of play and if that doesn’t work then we’re ******. It’s a very risky strategy especially when the individuals we’re heavily placing all of our trust in are inconsistent in terms of form.

The teams we’re aspiring to compete with (City and Liverpool) in the future are able to do both - they can dominate games, soak up pressure by passing the ball around plus they’re very dangerous on the counter attack. Arteta had the chance to persist in blending these two styles into our team as he had the tools available to do so but he clearly lacked patience.

I’m not quite sure on that argument anyway because we end up getting forced into playing a counter attacking style against these teams anyway.

In fact we try to get up the pitch as quickly as possible all the time.

 

[2Smokeyy]

I’m not quite sure on that argument anyway because we end up getting forced into playing a counter attacking style against these teams anyway.

It’s no surprise our success against those teams happened when we had Auba giving those CBs something to worry about. Liverpool and City defenders can day dream and think about what they’re having for dinner when we’re relying on Laca on the counter.

Not sure how long or how many players are needed to implement a change in style against the big teams since we haven’t even scored a goal against these sides in a very long time.

 

[Trilly]

It’s no surprise our success against those teams happened when we had Auba giving those CBs something to worry about. Liverpool and City defenders can day dream and think about what they’re having for dinner when we’re relying on Laca on the counter.

Not sure how long or how many players are needed to implement a change in style against the big teams since we haven’t even scored a goal against these sides in a very long time.

It’s more than players because we’ve seen posession and counter attacking teams worse than us trouble Liverpool.

Must be a mental block or poor tactics.

 

[2Smokeyy]

It’s more than players because we’ve seen posession and counter attacking teams worse than us trouble Liverpool.

Must be a mental block or poor tactics.

David Moyes has NFL players like Antonio running the channels and causing Liverpool problems. The tactics are definitely a factor but I’d include inexperience in that too.

I think Teta needs to splash out on more kids with potential to fix the issue

 

[boonthegoon]

Anyone knows why press conference quotes are always split in to 2 days. Why isn't the entire presser released on the day the presser was conducted?

 

[A_G]

Anyone knows why press conference quotes are always split in to 2 days. Why isn't the entire presser released on the day the presser was conducted?

The press conference for TV is done first, then the one for the written press. The quotes for the latter are embargoed until 10:30pm because they’re going to appear in tomorrow’s papers.

 

[Riou]

Feel him not mentioning the Conference League, could come back to bite us

 

[boonthegoon]

Our photographer getting extra dough on the side

 

[Riou]

Only Arsenal fans could make a club photographer famous enough, to be invited onto a podcast!

Fairplay to Stu though.

 

[A_G]

Our photographer getting extra dough on the side

He wants to be in the next manager of the month photo.

 

[Pop Tart]

Only Arsenal fans could make a club photographer famous enough, to be invited onto a podcast!

Fairplay to Stu though.

Dat future Tea lady episode

 

[Tourbillion]

Do something you useless idiot.