• ! ! ! IMPORTANT MESSAGE ! ! !

    Discussions about police investigations

    In light of recent developments about a player from Premier League being arrested and until there is an official announcement, ALL users should refrain from discussing or speculating about situations around personal off-pitch matters related to any Arsenal player. This is to protect you and the forum.

    Users who disregard this reminder will be issued warnings and their posts will get deleted from public.

4-2-3-1: We need to adjust tactically for midfield to work

Nela

Established Member
I know many on this site seem to have a negative reaction whenever we don't play 4-4-2. But playing 4-4-2 in a league where most of the teams we meet play some sort of version of 4-5-1 simply isn't realistic given our injuries and inexperienced players. We are having such a hard time trying to win the battle in midfield right now.

Last season the 4-4-2 worked in the begining of the season because we had a midfield in which our midfielders were in the best form of their Arsenal careers with shared responsability, defensive hassling across the midfield, ball retention, vision, passing...etc. You need topclass players in all 4 positions to make it work. And we simply don't have that now.


4-2-3-1
Song, Diaby and Denilson have become almost hated figures on this site lately. But if you put two of them in front of the back for with an ACM in front of them I think they'd perform much better. Because as it is today, regardles of which two of the three play, they can't handle the pressure and take hold of the game when we have a 4 man midfield.

I seriously think we should put Nasri in the "hole," which is not only his natural position, but adds some much needed creativity, drive and vision in the middle of the park. I believe RvP can play up front without Ade. In fact I think he will benifit more from having Nasri right behind him than having Ade beside him. The attack should be built around these two players IMO. And if you have players on the flanks making attacking runs, it'll give RvP a lot more to work with than when we're forced to play Eboue or Denilson on the wing in order to play a 4-4-2.

I am by no means an Ade hater, in fact I have many times stressed how important he can be for the team to work. With an immensly creative midfield behind him, he did well last season. But I think the insistence on 4-4-2 to accomodate both our strikers, comes at a massive expense for the midfield. We need to impose ourselves in midfield, and it's just not going to happen with the way we play currently. Ade could still be a big influence on games coming on from the bench as a big impact sub if needed.

The wide players
A change in formation also gives us much more interesting choices on the wings as it gives us the oppurtunity to play certain players that aren't realistic in a 4-4-2(e.g. Vela). We have two natural left footed players in Vela and Gibbs who can play on the left. Vela is obviously more attacking, while Gibbs can help defensively and has the speed to work well on the flanks. Meanwhile Bendtner has actually done a good job on the right when he's been asked to play there and I think it's worth at least trying. You could also play Diaby there, although I don't like that idea much.(But still better than him on the wing in a 4-4-2.) And of course there's Wilshere, though I din't think he's ready to start yet.

So just as an example..

-------------Almunia---------------

--Sagna---Gallas--Djourou--Clichy--

--------Song-------Denilson-------

-Bendtner----Nasri------Vela/Gibbs-

----------------RvP-----------------
 

MDGoonah41

Established Member
I don't know that the formation will work given the pieces we have.

Song - Decent prospect, but his tracking ability defensively is still suspect.

Denilson - Too easily overmatched in the challenge, not committed defensively.

Diaby - A mess, his main attribute is the ability to run with the ball/dribble, but he holds the ball way too long.

You'd be playing two of those 3 every match. That doesn't work for me.

I'd personally prefer we sign a legitimate defensive midfielder to play in a 4-1-3-2 setup. We had one in Gilberto, but let him leave. I've begged for him before, but Toulalan would be an ideal player for our team. You'd play him like this, assuming no other signings. When Cesc and Walcott are fit, you'd play...

----------- Toulalan ---------

-- Walcott -- Cesc -- Nasri --

------ RvP ---- Ade/Eduardo ---

If we had a dynamic playmaker like Arshavin, you could play him in place of Walcott. Then Walcott and Vela become your subs in those "flank" positions. Denilson, Diaby and Song provide backup for Cesc and Toulalan. Neither Diaby, Denilson or Song offer enough. Playing 3 of them, or even 2 of them at the same time is just asking for trouble. I'd prefer to play one in a true holding role and then just allow 5 attackers to try and create our chances.
 

Anzac

Established Member
My only question / concern is to how we'd use the FBs.

If they were to 'hold the line' in a defensive capacity then I'd go with the 4231 with wide attacking players (Diaby & Eboue would NEVER get a berth in a front 4 in this formation).

If the FBs were to continue to 'bomb forward' as in the current formation, then I'd go with a 4312 with Nasri behind 2 strikers.
 

Nela

Established Member
MDGoonah41 said:
I don't know that the formation will work given the pieces we have.

Song - Decent prospect, but his tracking ability defensively is still suspect.

Denilson - Too easily overmatched in the challenge, not committed defensively.

Diaby - A mess, his main attribute is the ability to run with the ball/dribble, but he holds the ball way too long.

You'd be playing two of those 3 every match. That doesn't work for me.

I'd personally prefer we sign a legitimate defensive midfielder to play in a 4-1-3-2 setup.
But we don't have that player. I started this thread to talk about what we can best do with what we have and given our injuries.
 

Nela

Established Member
Anzac said:
My only question / concern is to how we'd use the FBs.
The more I watch us play the more sceptical I become about how our fullback play and their role. What's the point of them bombing forward all the time if they can't cross and we don't have a target in the middle.

We're very predictable in how we use them. The wide player cuts inside, the fullback makes an overlapping run. I thought it was interesting to see Gibbs play against Cardiff. He switched it up. Sometimes he went outside, but sometimes he also cut inside and I liked that.
 

Anzac

Established Member
Nela said:
Anzac said:
My only question / concern is to how we'd use the FBs.
The more I watch us play the more sceptical I become about how our fullback play and their role. What's the point of them bombing forward all the time if they can't cross and we don't have a target in the middle.

We're very predictable in how we use them. The wide player cuts inside, the fullback makes an overlapping run. I thought it was interesting to see Gibbs play against Cardiff. He switched it up. Sometimes he went outside, but sometimes he also cut inside and I liked that.

Yup - it's just one of my many criticisms about our all too predictable tactical game plan. IMO the 'bombing FB runs' are a complete and utter cack, and (along with the wide mids coming inside) contributes to our defensive ineptitude. Then when Eboue & Diaby play on the flanks we have no fracking width to start with.
 

clockwork orange

Blind faith in "LVG filoshophy"
I'm all in favour of 4-2-3-1. Do not think Bendtner as right winger is a good idea.


For the 4 attacking positions these are our current options imo:

Walcott/RVP------Nasri/Rosicky/RVP-----Eduardo/Vela/Nasri/Rosicky
----------------Ade/Eduardo/Vela/RVP/Bendtner
 

Anzac

Established Member
clockwork orange said:
I'm all in favour of 4-2-3-1. Do not think Bendtner as right winger is a good idea.


For the 4 attacking positions these are our current options imo:

Walcott/RVP------Nasri/Rosicky/RVP-----Eduardo/Vela/Nasri
----------------Ade/Eduardo/Vela/RVP/Bendtner

RVP Nasri Vela
Ade Eduardo
 

Rain Dance

Established Member
Trusted ⭐
Anzac said:
clockwork orange said:
I'm all in favour of 4-2-3-1. Do not think Bendtner as right winger is a good idea.


For the 4 attacking positions these are our current options imo:

Walcott/RVP------Nasri/Rosicky/RVP-----Eduardo/Vela/Nasri
----------------Ade/Eduardo/Vela/RVP/Bendtner

RVP Nasri Vela
Ade Eduardo

@Anzac

So all out attack without defence??
It would take a super player behind Nasri to do the dirty work - tackling & covering for defenders -
 

Anzac

Established Member
Rain Dance said:
Anzac said:
clockwork orange said:
I'm all in favour of 4-2-3-1. Do not think Bendtner as right winger is a good idea.


For the 4 attacking positions these are our current options imo:

Walcott/RVP------Nasri/Rosicky/RVP-----Eduardo/Vela/Nasri
----------------Ade/Eduardo/Vela/RVP/Bendtner

RVP Nasri Vela
Ade Eduardo

@Anzac

So all out attack without defence??

It would take a super player behind Nasri to do the dirty work - tackling & covering for defenders -

That was in regard to an earlier mentioned 4132 formation = you have 5 defenders behind the attack - including the FBs.

If we were going with a 4231 you'd have 6 defenders behind a 4 man attack, and could use the FBs to overlap, and I'd start Eduardo as striker ahead of Ade. In a 4312 you could use the FBs to again provide width, with a dedicated holding mid infront of the CBs, while the other mids supported the attacking line & made late runs into the area.
 

hesham

Established Member
I'm not in favour of the lone striker and definitely not right now...our attacking power is already weak, when ever we play with a lone striker he is usually isolated up top and without Cesc the chances of providing long pin point passes is extremely low. RvP best position is a striker, not RW or AM he needs to be close to goal as possible. The last 5-10 games should have settled that. We don't have players who can play the wings well
Theo - is out.
Rosicky - Out.
Vela - despite the over hype on here has question marks over if he is ready. Bendtner - not for me at all.
Edu is a striker, not a winger and not ready.
That leaves Nasri...
 

Anzac

Established Member
hesham said:
I'm not in favour of the lone striker and definitely not right now...our attacking power is already weak, when ever we play with a lone striker he is usually isolated up top and without Cesc the chances of providing long pin point passes is extremely low. RvP best position is a striker, not RW or AM he needs to be close to goal as possible. The last 5-10 games should have settled that. We don't have players who can play the wings well
Theo - is out.
Rosicky - Out.
Vela - despite the over hype on here has question marks over if he is ready. Bendtner - not for me at all.
Edu is a striker, not a winger and not ready.
That leaves Nasri...

No - that leaves the 4312, which is my preference under the very circumstances you've just outlined. :wink:
 

Rain Dance

Established Member
Trusted ⭐
Anzac said:
That was in regard to an earlier mentioned 4132 formation = you have 5 defenders behind the attack - including the FBs.

If we were going with a 4231 you'd have 6 defenders behind a 4 man attack, and could use the FBs to overlap, and I'd start Eduardo as striker ahead of Ade. In a 4312 you could use the FBs to again provide width, with a dedicated holding mid infront of the CBs, while the other mids supported the attacking line & made late runs into the area.

Yes I understand the formation you proposed

But I was calculating the 5 man defense behind Nasri, the choices of DM/Anchor/Water boy/Tackler available for that role is quite rare and Arsenal certainly doesn't have one of that quality

4-3-1-2 is quite static BTW, I followed Roma during the time the use that tactic successfully and the 3 CM behind the hole certainly not as fluid as our 4-4-2 tactic with 4 CM(last year – this year it's most pure laziness)
 

Anzac

Established Member
Rain Dance said:
Anzac said:
That was in regard to an earlier mentioned 4132 formation = you have 5 defenders behind the attack - including the FBs.

If we were going with a 4231 you'd have 6 defenders behind a 4 man attack, and could use the FBs to overlap, and I'd start Eduardo as striker ahead of Ade. In a 4312 you could use the FBs to again provide width, with a dedicated holding mid infront of the CBs, while the other mids supported the attacking line & made late runs into the area.

Yes I understand the formation you proposed

But I was calculating the 5 man defense behind Nasri, the choices of DM/Anchor/Water boy/Tackler available for that role is quite rare and Arsenal certainly doesn't have one of that quality

4-3-1-2 is quite static BTW, I followed Roma during the time the use that tactic successfully and the 3 CM behind the hole certainly not as fluid as our 4-4-2 tactic with 4 CM(last year – this year it's most pure laziness)

Interesting - was it static because of the formation or in their execution? Slow build up or direct passing?

IMO what's missing in our midfield is the work done by BOTH MCs coming short for the ball - Song / Denilson etc prefer to hold position, meaning the passing is more likely to be laboured & easier to pick off when to a static player waiting to receive the ball. At our dynamic best prior to Christmas BOTH Cesc & Flamini were always playing fetch & carry to create the close triangles with the FB & wide mids.

Bottom line the formationas are NOT going to be an improvement on last season, but possibly an improvement on what we are trying to work NOW - but we won't know unless AW tries something different, which is not his track record.
 

hesham

Established Member
Anzac said:
hesham said:
I'm not in favour of the lone striker and definitely not right now...our attacking power is already weak, when ever we play with a lone striker he is usually isolated up top and without Cesc the chances of providing long pin point passes is extremely low. RvP best position is a striker, not RW or AM he needs to be close to goal as possible. The last 5-10 games should have settled that. We don't have players who can play the wings well
Theo - is out.
Rosicky - Out.
Vela - despite the over hype on here has question marks over if he is ready. Bendtner - not for me at all.
Edu is a striker, not a winger and not ready.
That leaves Nasri...

No - that leaves the 4312, which is my preference under the very circumstances you've just outlined. :wink:


that's 2 striker up top so I don't see were the disagreement is..
As for the midfield, i'm not to fussed as long as we have someone playing the DMC role
 

Anzac

Established Member
hesham said:
that's 2 striker up top so I don't see were the disagreement is..
As for the midfield, i'm not to fussed as long as we have someone playing the DMC role


hence the wink my friend = no disagreement at all - we even agree in your last comment. AW can use Song to park his arse as DMC in front of the CBs while the FBs create the width & Nasri pulls the strings from AMC.
 

hesham

Established Member
Anzac said:
hesham said:
that's 2 striker up top so I don't see were the disagreement is..
As for the midfield, i'm not to fussed as long as we have someone playing the DMC role


hence the wink my friend = no disagreement at all - we even agree in your last comment. AW can use Song to park his arse as DMC in front of the CBs while the FBs create the width & Nasri pulls the strings from AMC.

ahh, missed the wink :p
Nasri in the middle is definitely worth a shot while fab is out, only question i'd have is if our 2 wide players would be up for it defensively. It does make sense though.. RvP, Nasri and Ade are our three best attackers so they should be highest up the pitch.
The real problem is - whatever formation we play, we still have Denilson & Diaby on the field...
 

clockwork orange

Blind faith in "LVG filoshophy"
Well my main reason for favouring 4-2-3-1 is that in that system we see less of Eboue, Denilson, Song & Diaby. Furthermore it makes it easier for them if they have to play anyway (excluding Eboue who's only right full back backup)
 

Anzac

Established Member
hesham said:
ahh, missed the wink :p
Nasri in the middle is definitely worth a shot while fab is out, only question i'd have is if our 2 wide players would be up for it defensively. It does make sense though.. RvP, Nasri and Ade are our three best attackers so they should be highest up the pitch.
The real problem is - whatever formation we play, we still have Denilson & Diaby on the field...

so give them strict instructions to only move in the middle 3rd of the pitch, and show then what a cattle prod can do if they don't.....
 

Arsenal Quotes

Arsenal have got as much chance of being handed the title by Sp*rs as I have of being given the Crown Jewels. They are the last people we want winning the Championship. Now we mean to round off our season by beating Arsenal.

Alan Mullery (Sp*rs captain in 1971)

There is no way we were going to be beaten

Bertie Mee in the same game after beating Spurs and clinching the Double at White Hart Lane
Top Bottom