4-2-3-1: We need to adjust tactically for midfield to work

[Anzac]

Well my main reason for favouring 4-2-3-1 is that in that system we see less of Eboue, Denilson, Song & Diaby. Furthermore it makes it easier for them if they have to play anyway (excluding Eboue who's only right full back backup)

I agree with you reasoning, except that we would see 2 of them in any case as the 2 midfielders. But I guess the BONUS is that Eboue can't play in either the midfield OR attacking roles.

 

[clockwork orange]

And Vela, Eduardo being able to play wide, becuase of the controling midfielder behind them. I think if Wenger would tell Song & Denilson to play more controlling in that role, they'ld be much better than now when he wants them to play a game they're not ready for yet.

Which enables us to move Nasri centrally. we need some more midfield football in our axis, what annoyed me most yesterday (and before) was that our most capabale midifelder was playing wide.

Think 4-2-3-1 also suits our fullbacks. Our wingers not being out & out wingers (bar Walcott, he can play like one) means they'll cut more inside, which creates space for Sagna & Clichy.

 

[Anzac]

Think 4-2-3-1 also suits our fullbacks. Our wingers not being out & out wingers (bar Walcott, he can play like one) means they'll cut more inside, which creates space for Sagna & Clichy.

I'm only a fan of this when it's done randomly & at PACE - we are far too fracking laboured & predictable & leave acres of room in behind the FBs down our flanks. I remember Sunderland & Cisse exploiting this all day against our CBs - dragging them out wide etc.

 

[clockwork orange]

that's because we don't play 4-2-3-1!

-X--------X-----X------X-
---- <- X --------X ->---

The DMFs each control a wing.

 

[Anzac]

that's because we don't play 4-2-3-1!

-X--------X-----X------X-
---- <- X --------X ->---

The DMFs each control a wing.

I think AW was trying to work that v Sunderland, as he had Cesc playing the advanced role with Song & Denilson behind him - problem was that the rear mids went forward instead of wide = same old same old...........

 

[clockwork orange]

that's because Wengers' midfields are too flat (for our current squad) In

X------X----X----X
X------X----X----X

it's less their job to cover the wings.

they've to be the passing engine of the team, which they're not capable off.

Playing 4-2-3-1 enables us to play Ade, Eduardo & RVP in the same team. And Nasri as ACM.

 

[hesham]

Defensively we have no problem with that formation, attacking wise i dont believe we have the players for it right now imo, if we bing in Arshavin and get Theo back, that changes things...

 

[clockwork orange]

sorry double post

 

[Anzac]

that's because Wengers' midfields are too flat (for our current squad) In

X------X----X----X
X------X----X----X

it's less their job to cover the wings.

they've to be the passing engine of the team, which they're not capable off.

Playing 4-2-3-1 enables us to play Ade, Eduardo & RVP in the same team.

yep but v Sunderland Away IMO we played a 4321 with Cesc pushing forward into the hole & RVP & Theo as the AML&R.

 

[AFCG7]

Play 4 up front ( Nasri bendtner RVP Eduardo ) , interchanging postions left right and centre , Song and Wilshere in midfield and the regular 4 at the back. Cant do any worse than the clowns we have at the moment.
We drop Diaby Denilson and Adebayor from the starting lineup.
Wenger needs to wake up - if players in the current side arent hacking it try someone else.

 

[the dawn raids]

Think 4-2-3-1 also suits our fullbacks. Our wingers not being out & out wingers (bar Walcott, he can play like one) means they'll cut more inside, which creates space for Sagna & Clichy.

thats really what were in desperate need of; people making runs into threatening positions. we already overlap well down the pitch and create a fair amount of space for sagna and clichy but 3/4ths of the time in the final third their only play is to pass it back to whoever gave them the ball, standing looking clueless outside the box. its the same question over and over; whats the point of creating width when youve got no one to exploit the width you create?

along these lines, id like to see bendtner get a few more starts. at least he has some sense of tactical nous and purpose in the box. hes not sitting terribly too far back trying to link up play, and doing an absolute ****e job at it like adebayor.

 

[otfgoon]

Is it just me or were you guys moaning about our usage of the 4-2-3-1 during our title collapse last season?

Personally I would rather we play the 4-3-1-2 we saw Arsène resort to when trying to win a match late on earlier in the season (might have even been pre-season), if only to keep Robin in the position where he's doing so much damage to the opposition rather than risk shifting him outwide and risk him losing his form.

Something like this:

Sagna--Kolas--Djourou--Clichy

---Diaby---Song---Denilson

-----------Nasri

---------RvP--Ade

Or alternatively play Nasri further back, put Robin in his place and play Eduardo/Vela/Bendtner there.

No idea how well it would work but the creatvity in the middle would be a tad better you would imagine, and it should be relatively solid defensively.

That being said, sign a couple of players and with a fully fit squad, 4-4-2 wins hands down.

 

[Rain Dance]

That was in regard to an earlier mentioned 4132 formation = you have 5 defenders behind the attack - including the FBs.

If we were going with a 4231 you'd have 6 defenders behind a 4 man attack, and could use the FBs to overlap, and I'd start Eduardo as striker ahead of Ade. In a 4312 you could use the FBs to again provide width, with a dedicated holding mid infront of the CBs, while the other mids supported the attacking line & made late runs into the area.

Yes I understand the formation you proposed

But I was calculating the 5 man defense behind Nasri, the choices of DM/Anchor/Water boy/Tackler available for that role is quite rare and Arsenal certainly doesn't have one of that quality

4-3-1-2 is quite static BTW, I followed Roma during the time the use that tactic successfully and the 3 CM behind the hole certainly not as fluid as our 4-4-2 tactic with 4 CM(last year – this year it's most pure laziness)

Interesting - was it static because of the formation or in their execution? Slow build up or direct passing?

IMO what's missing in our midfield is the work done by BOTH MCs coming short for the ball - Song / Denilson etc prefer to hold position, meaning the passing is more likely to be laboured & easier to pick off when to a static player waiting to receive the ball. At our dynamic best prior to Christmas BOTH Cesc & Flamini were always playing fetch & carry to create the close triangles with the FB & wide mids.

Bottom line the formationas are NOT going to be an improvement on last season, but possibly an improvement on what we are trying to work NOW - but we won't know unless AW tries something different, which is not his track record.

Formation, It goes like this (top of my head so I might miss something)

----------------Delvecchio ---- Batistuta (/Montella?)----

-------------------------Totti/Nakata--------------------------

----------Tommassi-----Emerson-----DMC (can't remember who)

FB -----------------CB----------------CB --------------FB

The trio DMC are mobile, as you can see Tommassi is mobile type like Gattusso/Flamini , Emerson is a holding type like Gilberto/Denilson, the other guy I can't remember. Their games revolved around breaking opponent play in the center and pass the ball to the hole (Totti or his deputy Nakata) to use as counter attack. If my memory serves me right, Roma didn't use the standard catenaccio build-up through defenders but rather continental build up through midfielders

BTW, the one playing fetch and carry was not Cesc and Flamini last season, they were Flamini and Rosicky. Cesc usually wait around center

 

[sabret00the]

Can we please stop making stupid threads. We used to cut apart five man midfields but then when all of the hard work was done, try and walk it through the middle. If we utilise our wings better, have better off the ball running instead of this one touch bullshit then we're a better team already and the five man midfield isn't an issue. On top of that, the fact that anyone would suggest playing robin up top on his own, only goes to underline what a waste of space this thread is. Where the **** have all the good threads gone?

 

[Anzac]

@ Offgoon

no mate we were *****ing about the 451, which is an entirely different animal.

 

[Rain Dance]

@ Offgoon

no mate we were *****ing about the 451, which is an entirely different animal.

Entirely different animal like The Black striped white Zebra & The White striped Black Zebra you mean?

 

[Anzac]

@ Offgoon

no mate we were *****ing about the 451, which is an entirely different animal.

Entirely different animal like The Black striped white Zebra & The White striped Black Zebra you mean?

Nope - as in any formation with the likes of Walcott/Hleb/Nasri/Rosicky/Bendtner/Vela on the flanks as opposed to any formation with Diaby/Denilson/Eboue on the flanks......... :wink:

 

[Nela]

Can we please stop making stupid threads. We used to cut apart five man midfields but then when all of the hard work was done, try and walk it through the middle. If we utilise our wings better, have better off the ball running instead of this one touch bullshit then we're a better team already and the five man midfield isn't an issue. On top of that, the fact that anyone would suggest playing robin up top on his own, only goes to underline what a waste of space this thread is. Where the f**k have all the good threads gone?

So why don't you just start some threads on topics you want to discuss then instead of *****ing about it? It's not that hard. You talk about using the wings better with more off the ball running. Good. But what does that actually mean for the players we have available now? When you talk about using the wings better would you prefer for right footed Nasri to play on the right, and a left footed player on the left? Or do you prefer Nasri on the left, but that he simply just needs to maintain more width, and what effect would you like this to have on our fullbacks. And who would you play on the other wing given our injuries? There's tons to discuss and debate without being so *****y about it.

 

[General]

Nela, with all due respect and this isn't aimed at you personally but I agree with Sabre. It's a stupid thread filled with recycled debates and is no different to squad analysis or the more recent '4-4-2 dinosaur'. Perhaps Wenger should put out a advert on AM for a tactical genius so he can implement some of the bizarre and downright lunatic tactical proposals put forward here.

 

[McIntyre]

Am I missing something? When did 4-2-3-1 suddenly become some world-beating formation that is guaranteed to work?

Nela, I'm not having a go at you specifically because you're obviously just suggesting a formation that might make best use of the players we have.

But a few people recently have suggested we should be playing this formation and I'd just like to know upon what basis they believe it would work. Chelsea played essentially a 4-3-3 under Mourinho with Makelele holding, and United currently play a 4-3-3 also, before that I think most people have won the league with a 4-4-2.

So where does the notion that 4-2-3-1 is an effective formation come from? Let alone the notion that it would be successful in the Premiership?