442 / 451 Or: I like Diaby and Denilson in the middle

[raidersoftheark]

Easily our best performance of the season, and with the absence of Ade and RVP (as well as Edu), I think this might be the formation to go with at least for November.

I'm not convinced by Denilson's positioning just yet (even though it was mostly spot on today), but it's become obvious that he plays much better in a more packed midfield. He's got a great engine, and when he isn't principally responsible for the defensive solidarity of the midfield, he excels. Any Manc that came within a 10 yard radius of Denilson usually ended up getting a crunching tackle and loosing the ball.

Diaby's ability to power out of midfield hasn't been seen at Arsenal since Paddy, and if anybody can replace the ball retention that Hleb had, it's the lanky Frenchman. I think he's passed the test personally. The dude is an offensive mid and a good one at that.

Thoughts?

 

[hackajack]

We played 4231 today as we mostly have for the last two seasons. The two variants are an AM like Diaby/Hleb/Fabregas behind the striker or a second striker like RvP.

 

[General]

Oh ffs Hackajak, don't start again with this 4231 codswallop. We played 4-4-1-1 and it was clearly defined on MOTD today.

It worries me the dimunitive nature of our midfield and the fact that we had to adapt the team considerably against Stoke. I think defensively, Denilson is a liability (as is Cesc and Walcott) and although he played well today, there were still signs of those momentary lapses in concentration, the ball watching and the general lackadaisical approach when tracking back. No doubt he has talent but he clearly falls short of what's needed for a championship winning side. As a result, United had too much joy down the middle.

A glance in the tunnel before kick-off and our midfield often looked like schoolboys at best. When we lined up in the tunnel today, Diaby’s physically imposing stature was telling and this immediately gives a psychological advantage over the opposition. It’s quite disheartening how he’s been played out of position for the past few seasons and in the process invited unwarranted criticism from most Gooners. You put Cesc out wide and you’d achieve a far worse effect. He’s a central player, whether CM or AM but sadly hasn’t been able to settle in the rhythm to show his true qualities.

His ability to buy time on the ball is superb and can play from box to box unlike Denilson. For me he brings a different dimension and the raw physical power we’ve lacked since Pat departed. He just needs some more fine tuning but I'd rather fine tune him than Denilson. So whether it’s 4-4-1-1 or 4-4-2, I’d like to see him played more centrally.

 

[nazo]

It wasn't out best performance though.

Basically really, if Ade and Robin are back, we're back to 4-4-2 (or 4-4-0.5-1.5).

We're not going to take our better players out to fit in the lesser ones (Diaby for example). If they want to play they better force their way in by improving.

We'll probably play 4-5-1 in Europe with whoever on the wings.

 

[gunner_down_under]

With the absence of RvP and Ade, our best choice for the next couple of games is the same formation as the one against Utd.

As someone else pointed out, Denilson seems to play a little better in a packed midfield. But we're not going to change our entire formation and put 3 established strikers on the bench for Denilson. And he doesnt seem like he's going to be a Flamini or Vieira anytime soon, so the only option is to buy a DCM in January.

Its upto him and Diaby to force their way back into the team after that.

 

[number_0]

The formation that played chelsea in the carling cup final...

diaby and denilson next to cesc with nasri and theo on the wings, and ade as the spear head upfront.

 

[Anzac]

The formation that played chelsea in the carling cup final...

diaby and denilson next to cesc with nasri and theo on the wings, and ade as the spear head upfront.

So what do we do with RVP, Eduardo, Bendtner, Vela = sell them????
I'd rather have a 4231 with Nasri in the hole, RVP & Eduardo on the flanks & Ade / Bendtner in the middle, with Cesc & ???? playing from deeper.

 

[banduan]

Diaby's ball retention has always been impressive. But until he can pass better (no real sign of that against Manure), he'll always make way for another player.

And some of the posts are spot on, we can't just sacrifice our good forwards for the sake of Denilson. We could possibly retain Denilson for this particular formation when we need it, but we should have our midfield anchor to support a proper 442 or 4411 that will utilise our best assets in front.

 

[Nela]

I don't think it's about Denilson or Diaby so much as our flanks. I don't think a 4-4-2 works with both RvP and Theo playing, because it exposes our defense too much. Theo for all this talent is our biggest defensive liability in midfield. Gallas and Sagna both took yellows against ManU while trying to make up for Theo's mistakes.

In a 4-5-1/4-2-3-1/4-4-1-1 or whatever you want to call it, there's room for Theo to play his game without sacrificing the midfield too much. But with RvP, who is easily outmuscled and often loses the ball, playing both him and Theo makes us physically week and makes it harder for us to hold onto the ball.

If we had a fit Rosicky in the side, a 4-4-2 would have more balance, with he and Nasri on either wing. But for now the 4-4-1-1 works well in balancing the midfield. And with Theo and Nasri both big goal threats, we actually look much better attacking in this formation than a 4-4-2.

 

[hesham]

Some interesting points Nela
I'm actually starting to think that the promblem with our 442 formation is having Theo and Denilson on the pitch at the same time.
With Denilson playing the Guardiola role. possession football is even more important, he need to be exchanging short passes all the time and our wingers need to be extremly good at keeping possession something that Theo doesnt excel at. Also theres the extra defensive responsibilty that our wingers will have.
Milan played the deep lying playmaker role very well, but they had Seedorf and Gatusso next to him - two monster players who were always cutting inside and help in defense, i don't want Theo to be dropped as hes played well for us this season, but the balance isnt quite right yet so either a DM has to be brought in or something has to change. will be interesting to see what happens when/if Rosicky comes back

 

[arsmile]

i think wenger has tweaked our 442 this season anyway- i think vanpersie has been playign a lot deeper, with some defensive responsibilities, and diaby's role has been the same.

Perhaps wenger does think we are a bit light in the centre, so saw a need just to try and make sure he has one more body in there.

I know vanpersie has always played off the striker but i do think i have seen a difference in the last couple of months. It might be one way of adapting our game to make us more solid without loosing any offensive personel (say denilson for a DM). It is perhaps more noticable when diaby is in that role than robin because he is better at the defensive stuff.

so i guess i'm saying that formation change,(by adaping that robin-role) i think, was implemented by Arsène a while ago to cover for denislon and cesc a bit, it is just more noticable with diaby in there.

 

[General]

Does anyone recollect the point during the United game when Denilson had a chance to clear the ball (near the corner flag) but passed it straight to Theo, who then went on to lose it under his feet, creating a dangerous situation.

I agree. Defensively, Denilson and Theo are the biggest dangers on the pitch. Here's proof of the former's culpability.


<a class="postlink" href="http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/pdfs/sport/tacticalanalysis1011.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/pdfs/sp ... is1011.pdf</a>

 

[Nela]

Does anyone recollect the point during the United game when Denilson had a chance to clear the ball (near the corner flag) but passed it straight to Theo, who then went on to lose it under his feet, creating a dangerous situation.

I remember something like that. But in the incident I remember and saw again as I rewatched the game last night, it was Fabregas who passed to Theo. And Theo subsequently lost it.

 

[law]

Hmmm proof is it? You can pick out two times over the course of a match that defensive concentration is lost for almost any CM. Despite what the average touch position shows Fabregas and Denilson were both playing behind Diaby although obviously Denilson had more defensive duties. When our usually shaky defence only concedes one goal against an attack that is easily one of the best in the world it's hard to argue our CM weren't fulfilling there defensive duties well well enough. Uniteds deeper, better balanced defense and deeper lying CM conceded 1 more goal and probably as many clear cut chances despite the fact that United had more shots on target.

He's not as strong defensively as you would want and that's something he is improving at. What the United game showed though is that when Cesc also puts in the defensive duties we know that he's capable and our defense plays as well as you'd expect then the deficiencies Denilson does have in this aspect aren't a big problem.

 

[tactica442]

I agree. Defensively, Denilson and Theo are the biggest dangers on the pitch. Here's proof of the former's culpability.


<a class="postlink" href="http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/pdfs/sport/tacticalanalysis1011.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/pdfs/sp ... is1011.pdf</a>

I wasn't interested to contribute to this thread before General's post, because I think Diaby + Denilons is NOT the answer to the midfield. Areanl scored first and than the second goal came. That's why we saw Diaby came back helping out more often.

ManU were uncharacteriscally very unclinical in that game. Also one can just count how many Arsenal shirts were in the box when ManU had pops on the goal. Before ManU players like Berbatov making the final balls, they saw the Arsenal shirts behind the six yard box line. They chose to pass the ball to the options slightly backward and surprisingly no one near the shooters. Not to mention Berbatov sometimes delayed one or two seconds to find his options, yet no one to close the other options in that window of time.

 

[law]

Also back on topic, something that was supposed to be included in the first post is that Diaby makes a difference defensively and in terms of physical presence in the midfield. It's similar to our normal formation but what we see is our wide mids push further forward and the second striker drop completely into the midfield. It's about as close to a 4-3-3 as this team has ever been. Walcott and Nasri were playing as far forward as Diaby and making more direct attacking runs in the final third. With something approaching a 3 man CM we mask the defensive frailties of our wingers and the fact we have no CM who is primarily defensive whilst sacrificing little to nothing going forward. I think we could see this fairly often with strikers like RVP, Vela and Eduardo starting in wide positions. It's hard to say if it will work as we've seen the like of RVP and Eduardo be ineffective from the wings before but I think in the set-up we saw against United they will have much more license to go forward and play a role closer to that of a wide striker than when they've played on the wing for us in the past.

 

[qs]

I think the problem with replacing a striker with Diaby is going to be the obvious one, goals. Good as Diaby was against United he didn't get involved too much with the key attacks in the game. That disappointed me a little because I thought given his form and his main strengths he could have pushed the United defense more with his dribbling. While Robins suspended and Ade injured I think he's the man for the job but once they're back I'd switch it back to 4-4-2. Maybe use him there for away European games.

 

[number_0]

The formation that played chelsea in the carling cup final...

diaby and denilson next to cesc with nasri and theo on the wings, and ade as the spear head upfront.

So what do we do with RVP, Eduardo, Bendtner, Vela = sell them????
I'd rather have a 4231 with Nasri in the hole, RVP & Eduardo on the flanks & Ade / Bendtner in the middle, with Cesc & ???? playing from deeper.

We need the squad depth, with my(hehe) formation, we utilise our best resources while maintaining a solid midfield, vela and van persie can play instead of theo and nasri while eduardo and bendtner would be rotated with adebayor or preferbly be used as impact subs.

 

[progman07]

Where'd we put our strikers? Ade, RvP, Vela, Bendtner, Eduardo. Only one would play?

Also, our defensive stability doesn't depend on RvP or Diaby, it depends on Denilson, and the CBs. As that PDF file showed, Denilson is a defensive liability, he never tracks back, at least not well enough. If we solved that problem, we would have less defensive instability. Also, it isn't like Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez or Berbatov track back so often, and they conceded the least goals last year.

We will always concede, so I'd rather we made our attack as good as possible. 4-4-2 for me.

 

[General]

I’m all for evaluating our weaknesses irrespective of victory. On another day, we could’ve easily conceded 3 or 4. The solitary goal we conceded was very much down to United’s profligacy rather than the effectiveness of our midfield or defence. Fact is they did create some clear cut chances whiles our midfield defensively flattered to deceive at best. 200 successful passes in our half compared our 161 is quite a telling stat. As Wenger put it “We took our chances, they didn’t”


What the analysis laid bare was the culpability of Denilson in arguably the two most glaring goal scoring opportunities of the match. And we’ve see his lackadaisical approach when tracking back time and time again. Of course you can pick out instances during the course of a match that defensive concentration is lost for almost any CM. Whether this resulted in a clear goal scoring opportunity is the question. We are talking about football at the highest level where the smallest mistake is easily punished. You only have to fail to pick up your man once to be punished and we won’t get away with this very often. The amount of times Denilson gets caught ball watching is alarming

Don’t get me wrong, I think he has done well but 20 years comes with a lot of naivety, especially when placed in a position where maturity and discipline are mandatory. I have no doubts that he’d flourish next to a real ‘destroyer’ just as Cesc would. Pairing both together is just delaying the inevitable. A title chase hardly lends itself to on the job training.


As for Diaby, he was very effective in the hole and ensured that our lightweight midfield wasn’t overrun. I see him doing no worse in a 4-4-2 than Denilson either.