442 / 451 Or: I like Diaby and Denilson in the middle

[number_0]

Just seen the PDF file, thats shocking from Denilson tbh, but who else can play instead of him, song is to slow and doesnt cover enough space, while ramsey and coqluin are too young, that leaves diaby who am not sure about but is probably our best bet, if he learns how to tackle, that spot is his to lose.

I feel that Denilson lacks tactically, which could be fixed imo, but i think playing him next to diaby should shore up our defence, which should give more freedom to nasri and theo to push more forward to support the striker, while all 3 of our CM arent that bad attacking aswell.

 

[progman07]

Just seen the PDF file, thats shocking from Denilson tbh, but who else can play instead of him, song is to slow and doesnt cover enough space, while ramsey and coqluin are too young, that leaves diaby who am not sure about but is probably our best bet, if he learns how to tackle, that spot is his to lose.

I feel that Denilson lacks tactically, which could be fixed imo, but i think playing him next to diaby should shore up our defence, which should give more freedom to nasri and theo to push more forward to support the striker, while all 3 of our CM arent that bad attacking aswell.

1. Ramsey is only what, 2 years(?) younger. Same with Coquelin. Of course I'd like a real DM in the team, and against bigger teams I wouldn't pick Ramsey either, but at least we should try out Ramsey and Cesc together. Ramsey put in much better tackles than Denilson (talking about Ramsey's Fener game here), and he seems to track back well. Don't talk about experience, not like Denilson has much. Strength-wise, I think Ramsey is bulking up nicely, and he is not weaker than Denilson, who is easily pushed off the ball.

2. If tackling would be so easy to learn, he would have already learnt it. Also, Diaby is the laziest player we have. I would have nightmares because of him as a DM. When would he track back?

3. I'd love to think Wenger cares to explain deep tactical matters to Denilson, but we are in November and he still makes the same mistakes, i.e. not marking the running opposition midfielders, not closing down, not tackling well enough, thus giving away too many free kicks.

 

[law]

But General we created as many clear cut scoring opportunities as United (we could have scored 3 or 4 on another day) and managed to take more of ours even though they play much deeper defensively and us having our best 3 strikers all out. Does this mean their CMs aren't good enough? Their CBs? Not in my book, they conceded the least goals last season. As much as I like a front 4 of Bendnter, Diaby, Nasri and Walcott there's no way you can argue that it's as dangerous as Rooney, Berbatov, Ronaldo and Park. Our defense had a tougher job than theirs (which was the best in the Premiership last season) yet they conceded 2 and we conceded 1 with both teams missing good chances. Denilson may have made mistakes but to claim that these error prove that he's a defensive liability despite all the good work he did in containing such a ferocious attacking force as United's is foolish.

 

[number_0]

Just seen the PDF file, thats shocking from Denilson tbh, but who else can play instead of him, song is to slow and doesnt cover enough space, while ramsey and coqluin are too young, that leaves diaby who am not sure about but is probably our best bet, if he learns how to tackle, that spot is his to lose.

I feel that Denilson lacks tactically, which could be fixed imo, but i think playing him next to diaby should shore up our defence, which should give more freedom to nasri and theo to push more forward to support the striker, while all 3 of our CM arent that bad attacking aswell.

1. Ramsey is only what, 2 years(?) younger. Same with Coquelin. Of course I'd like a real DM in the team, and against bigger teams I wouldn't pick Ramsey either, but at least we should try out Ramsey and Cesc together. Ramsey put in much better tackles than Denilson (talking about Ramsey's Fener game here), and he seems to track back well. Don't talk about experience, not like Denilson has much. Strength-wise, I think Ramsey is bulking up nicely, and he is not weaker than Denilson, who is easily pushed off the ball.

2. If tackling would be so easy to learn, he would have already learnt it. Also, Diaby is the laziest player we have. I would have nightmares because of him as a DM. When would he track back?

3. I'd love to think Wenger cares to explain deep tactical matters to Denilson, but we are in November and he still makes the same mistakes, i.e. not marking the running opposition midfielders, not closing down, not tackling well enough, thus giving away too many free kicks.

1.Well Ramsey is 17 and Compared to Denilson, denilson is a lot more experianced, i agree though that Ramsey should be given more chance alongside cesc, as I feel hes more aggresive than our other CM, same thing with Coqluin.

2. Diaby is not as lazy as everyone makes him out to be, but he isnt as aggresive as i hope he should be, he still covers space, sheilds the ball well, and can charge though a packed midfield, I wouldnt want him behind cesc though, that would be a nightmare like you say, but with denilson next to him, we could tighten up our midfield signiecantly while not compromise our attack one bit.

3.Denilson doesnt lack the understading, what he has is youth naivity, which should be wiped out with games, it wont take a month or 2, probaly 4 i think, flamini used to make the same mistakes and he was 23 then, while Ramsey will be exposed by the same reason if he was to be played in the Engine room right now.

 

[patrick42uk]

Denilson and Diaby suffer from the same issue; a real lack of alertness. They dont sense danger in our third the way a true defensive player should.

 

[progman07]

1.Well Ramsey is 17 and Compared to Denilson, denilson is a lot more experianced, i agree though that Ramsey should be given more chance alongside cesc, as I feel hes more aggresive than our other CM, same thing with Coqluin.

2. Diaby is not as lazy as everyone makes him out to be, but he isnt as aggresive as i hope he should be, he still covers space, sheilds the ball well, and can charge though a packed midfield, I wouldnt want him behind cesc though, that would be a nightmare like you say, but with denilson next to him, we could tighten up our midfield signiecantly while not compromise our attack one bit.

3.Denilson doesnt lack the understading, what he has is youth naivity, which should be wiped out with games, it wont take a month or 2, probaly 4 i think, flamini used to make the same mistakes and he was 23 then, while Ramsey will be exposed by the same reason if he was to be played in the Engine room right now.

What Flamini had and it was necessary for his success is heart and desire to succeed. Yes, Denilson is trying, but not as hard as Flamini did. If Denilson had Flamini's fighting spirit, I'm sure he would be much better. The problem is, he doesn't have it. I don't say he doesn't care, just he doesn't have that mentality to make up for his weaknesses.

 

[kamikaze80]

agree with patrick. great post, general, i hope that helps to clear up what some of us mean when we say that denilson lacks in terms of positioning and awareness. they didnt show the cross from park to cronaldo at the far post, but it was the same as the second one in the diagram - silvestre was dragged in and clichy had to tuck in to cover, and neither denilson or nasri tracked back to mark cronaldo. it's pretty appalling to leave the world's best player unmarked at the far post for a clear shot at goal that thankfully, he screwed wide.

again, please dont freak out re: denilson - our entire midfield has been guilty of defensive lapses all season, and gallas started off the season poorly as well (though he's been a rock lately).

another thing i noted from the diagram was that nasri had a higher average position than walcott. nice work to score the goals, but in general, i'd rather have walcott play higher up. it also shows why clichy has been playing more withdrawn and why we look weak defensively down that left flank.

 

[JazzG]

True and that was best highlighted when Rooney had that chance in the 1st half he blasted over. When Berbatov spread it out wide Denilson's was just casually jogging back with his eyes on the ball and had no idea where Rooney was until Ronaldo pulled the ball back. A proper DM would of seen him pealing off and made sure he was in a position to intercept. His positioning during that was all wrong. I'm not saying it is his fault because it was a good move by Man utd but just highlighting that this defensive role isn't natural to him. This DM role is put down by some as the easiest in the team but against top sides they are the people who can make the difference defensively.

 

[kamikaze80]

yep, like patrick said, he switches off. funny thing is that he has good movement in the final third himself. you'd think that he could put himself in rooney or cronaldo's shoes and anticipate the danger. but all too often, he jogs around ball watching and passes the baton to someone else to do the defending when he's a critical component of our defence. it's really quite annoying.

that and the slowness of his passes really gets to me because it reflects a somewhat casual attitude. it's not enough that the pass just barely gets to the intended target in time. it should get there as quickly as possible, on the floor and in a spot where it's easiest to receive and keep the move flowing, so that the guy who receives the ball can actually do something with it instead of having to pass it backwards cos the defender is all over him.

 

[Captain]

tit-4-tat. There isn't a midfielder in the world who doesn't lose a man several times in a game and that's including Flamini last year who did it very often.

That positional data tells us nothing without having ManU's as well.

 

[kamikaze80]

of course, and united have the best movement in the top four, imo. that said, they've been shut down away from old trafford by other teams who have defended intelligently.

not to mention, denilson's been doing it all season. we're on pace to concede over 40 goals in the league, and we havent really faced any good teams besides united yet. last year, we conceded 31. i'm pretty sure it's impossible to win the league while conceding over 40 goals. i'd guess the average goals conceded for the champions has been in the twenties for the last several years. our midfield defence is inadequate, since thats the only area of the pitch where we've changed personnel.

 

[Captain]

Our midifield defence is inadequate, but I maintain that it is a problem of the whole midfield; not denilson.

The argument has been done to death really but he had a quality game on saturday and he has had several quality games this year mixed in with some average and some poor.

Besides that, that 'analysis' is as biased as they come.

 

[kamikaze80]

i agree, the problem is with the whole midfield, but denilson definitely shoulders much of the blame, since his job description involves more defensive duty than nasri or walcott. imo, walcott is what he is - we need him making runs up the pitch. that means fabregas needs to pull his weight on that side of midfield, and denilson needs to stay sharp on his end. nasri needs to play smarter as well.

as for the analysis, i'm not sure how it's biased for those specific instances. united love to get four attackers darting into the box. when that happens, our CMs need to follow, because 4v4 in our box is not going to cut it.

 

[Captain]

It's ManU propaganda; nothing to do with Denilson really, should have made that clear.

It is funny that every other midfielder is absolved of defensive duty because Denilson touched the ball most in the centre circle.

Tactical analysis my arse.

 

[kamikaze80]

fair enough. i thought he did a good enough job in the rest of the pitch, barring that horrible decision not to pass to walcott on that one break. but when youre a CM and there are 4 attackers behind you in the box making runs and generally being dangerous while you're just jogging around watching, then youre not doing your job, and unfortunately, a single mistake in the back can lose a match, whereas you might be able to get away with it further up the pitch.

 

[General]

But General we created as many clear cut scoring opportunities as United (we could have scored 3 or 4 on another day) and managed to take more of ours even though they play much deeper defensively and us having our best 3 strikers all out. Does this mean their CMs aren't good enough? Their CBs? Not in my book, they conceded the least goals last season. As much as I like a front 4 of Bendnter, Diaby, Nasri and Walcott there's no way you can argue that it's as dangerous as Rooney, Berbatov, Ronaldo and Park. Our defense had a tougher job than theirs (which was the best in the Premiership last season) yet they conceded 2 and we conceded 1 with both teams missing good chances. Denilson may have made mistakes but to claim that these error prove that he's a defensive liability despite all the good work he did in containing such a ferocious attacking force as United's is foolish.

I said the main difference between United and us on Saturday was finishing. You should look at this as a standalone point. Delving into United’s shortcomings in comparison to ours is another debate all together.

Do we credit our defence/midfield for their strikers missing sitters? Absolutely not. Of course Gallas and Tweety played a very organised game and probably surpassed Rio/Vidic but it still doesn’t hide the fact that protection in front of them was non existent at times.


This debate is centred on Denilson’s culpability in the goal scoring opportunities United created. Victory may give people delusions of grandeur about the effectiveness of our midfield but in the end it came down to finishing and finishing only, on either team’s part.

It’s beyond comprehension how you insist on crediting Denilson for his part in containing “this ferocious attacking force” when the evidence points to United’s profligacy in front of goal. The stats also suggest United created more goal scoring opportunities than us. I’m not looking at this game in isolation either. Granted, the problem we have with defending as a unit is down to a collective number of factors but Denilson’s shortcomings remain at the hub of it. His poor alertness/laissez-faire approach when tracking back has become a permanent feature since the opening game of the season. Boy has bundles of talent but he is certainly one of the main root causes.

PS
This is clearly getting off topic. I'm happy to carry on in the squad analysis thread.

 

[irishgunnerz]

Not really Denilsons fault, he isn't an out and out defensive midfielder and doesnt have the physical strength to ever be that tough tackling, ball winning DM that breaks up play and does the simple thing.

He played well on Sunday I thought (although Pool supporting mate of mine thought he was rubbish) but for me his natural game is a little bit too similiar to Fab). His good performance may have as much to do with Carrick's poor form and Anderson inexplicable fading in the second half.

Diaby's impressed me though, at least in some of the games. Pity he's not more consistant although I guess given the number of positions he's been asked to play in that might be asking a bit much

 

[raidersoftheark]

It looks like Wenger agrees with me regarding the 451 we played against United:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/wenger-the-benefits-of-a-fifth-midfielder" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archiv ... midfielder</a>

 

[kamikaze80]

Not really Denilsons fault, he isn't an out and out defensive midfielder and doesnt have the physical strength to ever be that tough tackling, ball winning DM that breaks up play and does the simple thing.

that misses the point. if we played van persie as a CM, you could say the same thing, but that doesnt change the fact that van persie shouldnt be starting next to fabregas. also, we're not asking him to never cross the halfway line, we're asking him to be more alert to danger and take more responsibility for defending. his problem isnt necessarily an inability to tackle - it's an inability or unwillingness to track back and spot danger.

 

[Anzac]

I'm still waiting to see our options on the flanks. If Rosicky & Bischoff regain fitness then I'm still expecting to see Nasri in the hole, and Eboue next to Cesc as our starting line up, with the likes of Denilson, Song, Diaby, Theo, RVP rotated off the bench depending on circumstances.