Aaron Ramsey: BianconAaron

[Mark Tobias]

It was only on the last page

Sorry, server was so slow here yesterday I was struggling.

 

[Mark Tobias]

Champions League final & his role was pretty significant.

Thats mine... There is no set definition of a club legend.

That's fair. Honestly had forgotten about the CL final though...
There isn't you are right. I just don't like the idea of watering it down either,

 

[Toby]

Fabregas won nothing here, still i'd say he's more of a legend than ramsey.

See, it's completely different for me. Fabregas is nothing like a legend to me and he didn't have an era for me. He's was a stellar player, sure, but only on the verge of actually becoming a legend and emboss an era - but instead of doing that the **** became a traitor and forced his way out of the club.

For all his great displays and performances he never actually pushed Arsenal over the line to win something. He put a knife in Wenger's back and left in one of the most dire financial situations because he got his head turned by a couple of spanish midgets without actually accomplishing anything. He even was on a longterm contract and f*cked Arsenal in terms of the transfer fee by going on strike and saying he was just joining Barca. Stellar player during his Arsenal days, but a classless, ungrateful character.

I don't really want to weight in on what qualifies someone as a club legend, but in any case Ramsey with his longtime service, his personal history and two final winning goals far more qualifies as one or is closer to it than Fabregas, despite the latter being the individually better player at his peak.

 

[pigge]

See, it's completely different for me. Fabregas is nothing like a legend to me and he didn't have an era for me. He's was a stellar player, sure, but only on the verge of actually becoimg a legend and emboss an era - but instead of doing that the **** became a traitor and forced his way out of the club.

For all his great displays and performances he never actually pushed Arsenal over the line to win something. He put a knife in Wenger's back and left in one of the most dire financial situations because he got his head turned by a couple of spanish midgets without actually accomplishing anything. He even was on a longterm contract and f*cked Arsenal in terms of the transfer fee by going on strike and saying he was just joining Barca. Stellar player during his Arsenal days, but a classless, ungrateful character.

I don't really want to weight in on what qualifies someone as a club legend, but in any case Ramsey with his longtime service, his personal history and two final winning goals far more qualifies as one or is closer to it than Fabregas, despite the latter being the individually better player at his peak.

Never said fabregas is a legend for me m8, he isnt. Fabregas obvoiusly always better than ramsey though. Except maybe last two years.

 

[Toby]

Never said fabregas is a legend for me m8, he isnt. Fabregas obvoiusly always better than ramsey though. Except maybe last two years.

You at least said he's more of a legend to you than Ramsey and labelled a complete era after him...

kept us hoping

I mean that's the point, right? He "kept" fans hoping but never delivered, then f*cked off to Barca. Ramsey actually was an integral part of the team that not only kept fans hoping, but in the end delivered - 3 FA Cups actually. In two of those he scored clutch deciding goals.

And regarding those goals: Sure, it's a bit nitpicky to evaluate the importance of goals, but nobody says the other goals in those finals were unimportant and it goes without saying Arsenal don't win without those, but not for no reason are players sometimes evaluated on the "importance" of their goals to their team's success, e.g. do they open their team's scoring, do they score the equalizer, do they score the winning goal - clutch goals of "higher" importance, or do they score the 3rd or 4th in an effortless win?

You know Sergio Ramos is widely lauded and revered for his ability to pop up with such clutch goals, equalizing or getting the winner late on in tight games, and people say "what a beast, what a leader, always turns up when needed to get Real Madrid ahead in tight situations", but with Ramsey it's just fluke or random and not a big deal. I've never heard anyone say "nice goal for Ramos, but what about that Modric equalizer? Without that they wouldn't have won, too" when Ramos had scored another late winner in some tight CL knockout game. No **** Sherlock, of course you don't win games with one goal margins without any of the goals scored, but scoring the winning goal in a tight final is definitely up there with massive achievements for a club.

And quite contrary to Ramsey, where was Fabregas in the 2007 and 2011 League Cup finals? That guy couldn't even deliver that Mickey Mouse trophy for all the plaudits he gets.

Fabregas obvoiusly always better than ramsey though.

I also don't think individual quality neccesarilly plays into someone being a legend or not that much. Over their whole Arsenal careers I actually don't think Fabregas is so much beyond Ramsey as an individual player. At his peak he was clearly better, but overall? Not that much. And still, even if he was 10 times the player measured only by individual quality, he never actually delivered anything.

 

[Mark Tobias]

You at least said he's more of a legend to you than Ramsey and labelled a complete era after him...



I mean that's the point, right? He "kept" fans hoping but never delivered, then f*cked off to Barca. Ramsey actually was an integral part of the team that not only kept fans hoping, but in the end delivered - 3 FA Cups actually. In two of those he scored clutch deciding goals.

And regarding those goals: Sure, it's a bit nitpicky to evaluate the importance of goals, but nobody says the other goals in those finals were unimportant and it goes without saying Arsenal don't win without those, but not for no reason are players sometimes evaluated on the "importance" of their goals to their team's success, e.g. do they open their team's scoring, do they score the equalizer, do they score the winning goal - clutch goals of "higher" importance, or do they score the 3rd or 4th in an effortless win?

You know Sergio Ramos is widely lauded and revered for his ability to pop up with such clutch goals, equalizing or getting the winner late on in tight games, and people say "what a beast, what a leader, always turns up when needed to get Real Madrid ahead in tight situations", but with Ramsey it's just fluke or random and not a big deal. I've never heard anyone say "nice goal for Ramos, but what about that Modric equalizer? Without that they wouldn't have won, too" when Ramos had scored another late winner in some tight CL knockout game. No **** Sherlock, of course you don't win games with one goal margins without any of the goals scored, but scoring the winning goal in a tight final is definitely up there with massive achievements for a club.

And quite contrary to Ramsey, where was Fabregas in the 2007 and 2011 League Cup finals? That guy couldn't even deliver that Mickey Mouse trophy for all the plaudits he gets.



I also don't think individual quality neccesarilly plays into someone being a legend or not that much. Over their whole Arsenal careers I actually don't think Fabregas is so much beyond Ramsey as an individual player. At his peak he was clearly better, but overall? Not that much. And still, even if he was 10 times the player measured only by individual quality, he never actually delivered anything.

Actually becoming quite fond of your TL;DR posts!

Loved the highlighted bit. Quite true, Sex Fabulous played his best for us and then digressed into a plain old Cesc Fabregas,

 

[GDeep™]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ition-claims-juventus-chief-a4064791.html?amp

Exciting times for Ramsey.

 

[Mark Tobias]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/arsenal/arsenal-never-used-aaron-ramsey-in-his-best-position-claims-juventus-chief-a4064791.html?amp

Exciting times for Ramsey.

Weird theory considering he has played in virtually every position across the midfield in his time here. Best spell came at right wing, if I am not mistaken.
Although, I see the definition of 'Mezalla' may not be entirely possible or plausible in the English set up.

 

[Toby]

Weird theory considering he has played in virtually every position across the midfield in his time here. Best spell came at right wing, if I am not mistaken.
Although, I see the definition of 'Mezalla' may not be entirely possible or plausible in the English set up.

Have we actually ever played a proper 433? Even without Özil it was a 4231 with Cazorla at 10, since Mesut's arrival there always was a 10 position by default. I think I may remember some early experiments of a 433 with Ramsey and Wilshere as the advanced midfielders, but iirc these two didn't really click with each other. Even way before that it was Cesc at 10 after Wenger changed from 442 to 4231.

 

[Mark Tobias]

Have we actually ever played a proper 433? Even without Özil it was a 4231 with Cazorla at 10, since Mesut's arrival there always was a 10 position by default. I think I may remember some early experiments of a 433 with Ramsey and Wilshere as the advanced midfielders, but iirc these two didn't really click with each other. Even way before that it was Cesc at 10 after Wenger changed from 442 to 4231.

Yup, I would say that is correct. Wenger may have placed too much hope in the Ramsey-Wilshere combo. On paper it looked mean

 

[Toby]

Yup, I would say that is correct. Wenger may have placed too much hope in the Ramsey-Wilshere combo. On paper it looked mean

Agree. In theory these two were a pretty good fit as advanced mids in front of a DM. Ramsey in the role for which Juve are bringing him in now, and Wilshere as a press resistant ball carrier like Cazorla to advance and link play. But they just never hit it off, sadly, and Wenger remained with his 4231. Think maybe both want to see too much of the ball to properly have worked together.

 

[pigge]

You at least said he's more of a legend to you than Ramsey and labelled a complete era after him...



I mean that's the point, right? He "kept" fans hoping but never delivered, then f*cked off to Barca. Ramsey actually was an integral part of the team that not only kept fans hoping, but in the end delivered - 3 FA Cups actually. In two of those he scored clutch deciding goals.

And regarding those goals: Sure, it's a bit nitpicky to evaluate the importance of goals, but nobody says the other goals in those finals were unimportant and it goes without saying Arsenal don't win without those, but not for no reason are players sometimes evaluated on the "importance" of their goals to their team's success, e.g. do they open their team's scoring, do they score the equalizer, do they score the winning goal - clutch goals of "higher" importance, or do they score the 3rd or 4th in an effortless win?

You know Sergio Ramos is widely lauded and revered for his ability to pop up with such clutch goals, equalizing or getting the winner late on in tight games, and people say "what a beast, what a leader, always turns up when needed to get Real Madrid ahead in tight situations", but with Ramsey it's just fluke or random and not a big deal. I've never heard anyone say "nice goal for Ramos, but what about that Modric equalizer? Without that they wouldn't have won, too" when Ramos had scored another late winner in some tight CL knockout game. No **** Sherlock, of course you don't win games with one goal margins without any of the goals scored, but scoring the winning goal in a tight final is definitely up there with massive achievements for a club.

And quite contrary to Ramsey, where was Fabregas in the 2007 and 2011 League Cup finals? That guy couldn't even deliver that Mickey Mouse trophy for all the plaudits he gets.



I also don't think individual quality neccesarilly plays into someone being a legend or not that much. Over their whole Arsenal careers I actually don't think Fabregas is so much beyond Ramsey as an individual player. At his peak he was clearly better, but overall? Not that much. And still, even if he was 10 times the player measured only by individual quality, he never actually delivered anything.

My point was that neither is a legend. And i value cesc's contribution to me as an arsenal fan higher than i value Ramseys value. And my point with the goals, which importance is overvalued in my opinion (just because other fans puts much higher value in the winning goal doesn't make it true). However being a player that shows up in big games if obviously a good quality.

And quite contrary to Ramsey, where was Fabregas in the 2007 and 2011 League Cup finals? That guy couldn't even deliver that Mickey Mouse trophy for all the plaudits he gets.

"Where were messi when argentina needed him?". It's not really a good argument for obvious reasons as you could probably find these situations for a lot of players.

Maybe you have examples where he didnt perform at his best, but if you want i can give you alot of big games where he did perform.

 

[Mark Tobias]

My point was that neither is a legend. And i value cesc's contribution to me as an arsenal fan higher than i value Ramseys value. And my point with the goals, which importance is overvalued in my opinion (just because other fans puts much higher value in the winning goal doesn't make it true). However being a player that shows up in big games if obviously a good quality.


"Where were messi when argentina needed him?". It's not really a good argument for obvious reasons as you could probably find these situations for a lot of players.

Maybe you have examples where he didnt perform at his best, but if you want i can give you alot of big games where he did perform.

Something fundamentally wrong with the way you view contributions if a player who won us nothing and hopped on the first plane to Barce is ahead of a player who gave us the core of his career and helped attain 3 FA cups.
I mean Cesc was awesome but I don't get how people idol worship this snake. These things happen in football. I am over it. But I don't forget either.

 

[A_G]

If you taunt the Arsenal fans at the Emirates by tapping and pointing at the Chelsea badge, you can't be a legend imo.

 

[Toby]

And my point with the goals, which importance is overvalued in my opinion (just because other fans puts much higher value in the winning goal doesn't make it true).

It's not fans that do the evaluating, it's stats people and the like. A player who more often than not scores important goals like opening ones, equalizers or winning goals will always be more important and his goals will be more important than someone who mostly just scores the 3-1 or the 2-0.

And that actually comes into play when evaluating a player, as when it becomes so consistent that you could almsot call it a trait, like with Ramos, it's one factor that shows a certain determination and mentality of a player. Like this guy is up for it until the whistle blows and he's up for it in clutch moments - contrary to say something like a fair weather player who'll do good and score when everything runs in his favour, but who can't be relied upon to step up in crucial moments.

"Where were messi when argentina needed him?". It's not really a good argument for obvious reasons as you could probably find these situations for a lot of players.

While it doesn't detract from Messi's allround quality, his performances and success with Barca, for a lot of people his "failure" to turn up for Argentina a lot of times and his seemingly at worst rather disruptive and at best rather limiting influence on that team are all a ditch in his icon. So, bar maybe the 2014 WC, the question is very comprehensible.

 

[Mark Tobias]

If you taunt the Arsenal fans at the Emirates by tapping and pointing at the Chelsea badge, you can't be a legend imo.

How did I forget about this. Livid like the day it happned. ******* Snake!
No longer over it anymore.

*Heads off to room to sulk*

 

[Fewtch]

If you taunt the Arsenal fans at the Emirates by tapping and pointing at the Chelsea badge, you can't be a legend imo.

Fake news!

 

[pigge]

Something fundamentally wrong with the way you view contributions if a player who won us nothing and hopped on the first plane to Barce is ahead of a player who gave us the core of his career and helped attain 3 FA cups.
I mean Cesc was awesome but I don't get how people idol worship this snake. These things happen in football. I am over it. But I don't forget either.

Id argue fabregas gave us the best years of his career. We dont know what happened with cesc really, but i agree he couldve handled His Exit better. Feels like he Took maybe the fourth plane to barca imo, probably for the same reason that ramsey is leaving, except ofc it was his boyhood club. Ramsey also helped us out of top four with his consistant **** performances.

 

[tap-in]

Fake news!

Just goes to show you cant trust anything you see. He could have been thumping his heart as if to say "Forever in my heart" making it look like he thumps the badge changes everything.

I do agree though, as I said recently, Cesc is not a legend.

 

[A_G]

Fake news!

The link you posted:

But any allegiances with Arsenal look dead after this. The Spanish midfielder was booed all throughout Chelsea’s 1-0 victory over Arsenal at the Emirates Stadium, with fans still not forgiving him for his acrimonious exit to Barca and subsequent move to Stamford Bridge. And Fabregas responded on the full-time whistle by tapping the Chelsea badge towards Arsenal fans sat near the tunnel.

The badge tapping must've happened outside of that 3 second clip.