Arsène Wenger: Same Old Class

[Mark Tobias]

It's almost impossible to properly rate Löw. Managing national teams is a completely different game, and the last time he managed a club was back when Wenger was still hailed as one of the best managers in the world and Henry was in peak form.

The gut reaction is to say that he's underperformed given the quality of players available to him, but we're talking playoff football here where one game decides your entire tournament. It's not at all indicative of how he'd do over 38 games in a league setting. And to be fair, he still won the world cup.

You're basically basing an entire opinion on him from a Champion's League point of view. If you were to rate Wenger's career on his CL performances alone, would he still be regarded as a good manager?

It's tough when there's no record to speak of. He's ostensibly just as much an unknown quantity as someone like Arteta would be when it comes to managing a football club.

Elite post

 

[A_G]

Are you saying our fans have understood the relationship between wealth and winning, because I haven't seen any evidence of it? For years they've been abusing him for not winning the league despite 4 clubs spending a lot more. Words like mediocre and failure abound on Arsenal fan TV. 9 years out of 20 we've been a selling club, two seasons we've spent over 60 million . . . Chelsea 12 seasons, City 10, United and Liverpool 8 seasons. Why should he have been winning the league? He hasn't even cycled up and down like clubs do, he's stayed at the top. And keeps winning trophies.

They didn't abuse him for not winning the league, they're critical because they don't feel he does everything in his power to compete. Finishing behind those rich clubs is one thing, but finishing behind them while leaving the squad short at the start of the season is where the frustration comes in. How many summers has he failed to do adequate business in the transfer market and then dropped points in the first 2/3 games? If you maximise your resources and don't win the league you can at least say you had an honest go, but Wenger would rather show endless faith in substandard players.

And your last paragraph should read, 'Only at Arsenal is the manager to blame for absolutely ****ing everything' . . players leaving, transfers, tactics, no training drills, players making mistakes, injuries, toxic dressing room, not wanting to spend the money he's been given, ruins youngsters, lying, arrogance, past it, control freak. In fact if our fans can twist his words, find obscure stats, mock, make up stories, they'll do it.

Look, just because there are some extreme opinions on Wenger doesn't invalidate some the genuine criticism. Some things are actually out of his control, but you're acting like he no influence when he sends 11 players out there. If the team is left exposed defensively in a big game and loses by 4 or 5, that's on him. The shocking penalty against WBA isn't. He can't do anything about situations like Debuchy hurting his shoulder after being shoved into the hoardings by Arnautovic, but he is the one who sent Cazorla back onto the pitch against Norwich even though he had already damaged his knee. Why shouldn't be held accountable for matters that are clearly within his sphere of influence?

 

[Dj_sds]

Well you won't be the first to deny the truth, or to use the word despise inappropriately

Is it the truth or just another excuse to protect wenger in his fantasy bubble? We've had players are too young, injuries, squad cost, cant get best bundesliga talents, player mistakes are not wengers mistakes, financial restrictions, stadium debt, had to sell best players, did i miss any?

 

[Makingtrax]

They didn't abuse him for not winning the league, they're critical because they don't feel he does everything in his power to compete.

We must be reading and watching different stuff. He has been heavily critised for not winning the league, and worse, given very little credit for finishing in the top 4. A double whammy.

Look at this post you put a like on.

Its only at Arsenal that the manager never gets sacked for poor and often shambolic performances on the pitch as well, over years and years not just months.

Years and years. I said to this guy, 'In the history of the Prem, name any club spending less than United, City, and Chelsea who have sacked a manager for finishing in the top 4 and winning a trophy every other year on average . . needless to say he hasn't come back. That's the extent of the bias. A loss is a loss for other clubs, only at Arsenal is it always called a shambles.

 

[Makingtrax]

Why shouldn't be held accountable for matters that are clearly within his sphere of influence?

Of course he should. Not a clue what all that's about. I was responding to the fact that you said, 'Only at Arsenal is the manager never to blame when things go wrong' . . and I almost fell off my chair laughing. I'm still laughing now.

 

[Makingtrax]

Is it the truth or just another excuse to protect wenger in his fantasy bubble? We've had players are too young, injuries, squad cost, cant get best bundesliga talents, player mistakes are not wengers mistakes, financial restrictions, stadium debt, had to sell best players, did i miss any?

Well if you don't believe in squad cost, as you keep saying, I'll wait for your explanation why the richest 3 clubs have won the league for 12 of the last 13 years, since the oil money arrived. And I don't want to hear about Arsenal ffs.

 

[shootxhakashoot]

We must be reading and watching different stuff. He has been heavily critised for not winning the league, and worse, given very little credit for finishing in the top 4. A double whammy.

Look at this post you put a like on.


Years and years. I said to this guy, 'In the history of the Prem, name any club spending less than United, City, and Chelsea who have sacked a manager for finishing in the top 4 and winning a trophy every other year on average . . needless to say he hasn't come back. That's the extent of the bias. A loss is a loss for other clubs, only at Arsenal is it always called a shambles.

I havent come back because I havent had time , its the weekend after all. I respect your opinion and see the sense in what you are saying but all of what you say bears no resemble to regular performances on the pitch and the actual game of football and how football clubs behave outside of the bubble of Arsène Wenger and Kroenkes Arsenal.
Just because you have some high minded slightly warped theory on the world which backs up Wenger doesnt mean it reflects the world as it is. Wenger refuses to compete and behave like other football clubs of an equal stature, refuses to change his ways and the team is going backwards because of this.
Wenger has had the comfort of time to get that average you talk about and it does flatten itself out when you are looking at things over 20 years. Time is something no other club apart from United under Fergie afford a manager (and he kept up on winning titles right until he retired and didnt make all these excuses about other clubs having all the money either even though he was restricted by the Glazers at the time). I cant name a manager but neither can I name a manager of a top club who has been allowed to go on and on for years with this lack of success i the tournaments that matter or that just looks so off the pace and disjointed as a football team. Indeed this is an indication of how shocking Kroenke is as an owner but an owner who was interested in anything but leaching off the club would not have allowed Wenger to stay put the way he has. Its business pure and simple for this club and that is why the fans are angry as they are paying for it and Wenger is balls deep in the arrangement. Why dont you name me a manager of a top club who has been there 20 years full stop? You wont be able to do it because any other top club sacks the manager when success stops (we didnt win a trophy for how many years exactly before ourlittle purple patch of fa cups)?.

 

[A_G]

We must be reading and watching different stuff. He has been heavily critised for not winning the league,

He gets criticised for not winning the league when he's top midway through and then the team inexplicably collapses. You cannot ignore the context.

and worse, given very little credit for finishing in the top 4. A double whammy.

There's a term for a feat becoming less impressive the more you achieve it, can't remember what it is but it describes Wenger. A victim of his own success perhaps but he did say you can't go back to sausages after eating caviar every day.

Of course he should. Not a clue what all that's about. I was responding to the fact that you said, 'Only at Arsenal is the manager never to blame when things go wrong' . . and I almost fell off my chair laughing. I'm still laughing now.

It applies to you and your acolytes.

 

[shootxhakashoot]

Well if you don't believe in squad cost, as you keep saying, I'll wait for your explanation why the richest 3 clubs have won the league for 12 of the last 13 years, since the oil money arrived. And I don't want to hear about Arsenal ffs.

Arsenal are traditionally one of the clubs that compete for the title, regardless of oil money etc etc. Maybe just maybe its not purely just about money as you seem to think and the manager could have been holding us back all this time with his prudent do enough to get champions league mode that hes got into, couldn't get out of when money was spent and now is taking us backwards.
Regardless of the oil money this manager cant take the team any further towards premier leagues and champions leagues. The team is going backwards visibly on the pitch, the performances are erratic and yes sometimes shambolic. What I watch on the pitch is all I care about, it doesn't matter what Wenger does in the past, it is the present and the future that matters.

 

[shootxhakashoot]

Well you won't be the first to deny the truth, or to use the word despise inappropriately

"The truth" just because you say it is the truth doesnt make it so and also doesnt mean that other people believe in what you think it means either. When was the last time we won the title? In fact when was the last time we got to about Jan/Feb then collapsed after looking like we were the team to beat? You dont go half a season as top of the league then collapse (like we used to, the collapse starts from day 1 of the season nowadays) just because of money, more a weakness of planning and mentality.

 

[Dj_sds]

Well if you don't believe in squad cost, as you keep saying, I'll wait for your explanation why the richest 3 clubs have won the league for 12 of the last 13 years, since the oil money arrived. And I don't want to hear about Arsenal ffs.

My whole point is, Arsenal IS among the richest clubs in world football let alone the premier league. You are talking as if we still dont have any money. Gazidis and Wenger admitted we have the financial power to compete, we wont blow city out of the water but we can give them a run for their money. Like many people have said before, wenger can do more but he doesnt.

 

[shootxhakashoot]

My whole point is, Arsenal IS among the richest clubs in world football let alone premier league. You are talking as if we still dont have any money. Gazidis and Wenger admitted we have the financial power to compete, we wont blow city out of the water but we can give them a run for their money. Like many people have said before, wenger can do more but he doesnt.

yep exactly. the thinking is that because Wenger has spent a pitance, and often mafe us a profit in the transfer market and kept 4th place (historically) that is something to be admired. Maybe it is if you are into economics but I cant see how that makes things exciting for us fans, what the hell is anyone getting out of this arrangement apart from Kroenke, the shareholders and Wenger himself?
So he can compete against teams like Everton (not man utd anymore) on a self imposed budget? Actually so what, who cares I dont anymore, I just want the club to behave like other clubs and TRY and compete for things. Interesting what a couple of expensive signings can do for performance as shown today so far, although there is some doubt whether the manager has any input in signings any more if he did we'd have some cheap guy from the french second division based on past experience of "squad cost".

 

[Makingtrax]

My whole point is, Arsenal IS among the richest clubs in world football let alone the premier league. You are talking as if we still dont have any money. Gazidis and Wenger admitted we have the financial power to compete, we wont blow city out of the water but we can give them a run for their money. Like many people have said before, wenger can do more but he doesnt.

I told you not to mention Arsenal. Answer my question ffs. There's a massive difference between whinging and talking about football.

 

[Hope]

We need a RB to replace Bellerin,a CDM to replace Xhaka,a CB to replace to Mustafi.

These guys are absolutely Bottlers. You cant trust them. Totally our weak guys.

 

[DoitschWurzl]

We need a RB to replace Bellerin,a CDM to replace Xhaka,a CB to replace to Mustafi.

These guys are absolutely Bottlers. You cant trust them. Totally our weak guys.

-.-

Your name may be hope, but for me there is none. Your posts make not much sense but are a pain to read cause there are lot of mistakes in any.

 

[Makingtrax]

Arsenal are traditionally one of the clubs that compete for the title, regardless of oil money etc etc.

Wtf does that even mean. You've just written three essays spouting the usual narrative that I've heard a 100 times before, word for word.

You said Wenger should have been sacked years ago.

I asked you to name any club in the history of the EPL whose spending is below the rich 3 where the manager has been sacked whilst being in the top 4.

It works like this, you answer my question and we discuss it. This is how conversations go.

 

[Dj_sds]

I told you not to mention Arsenal. Answer my question ffs. There's a massive difference between whinging and talking about football.

You really are a one man army in this thread, in some ways i do respect your stubbornness (perhaps this is the reason why you are so attached to wenger?). Also why cant i mention arsenal? its the only club i care about and the reason why im even responding in this thread.

According to your squad cost theory the team that spends the most always wins the tittle, this is not true. Look at athletico madrid and dortmund, im not even metioning leicter city and monaco or monteplier becaus the first teams i mentioned have, over the past 6 years or so, been able to consistenly compete with clubs far richer than themselves. The reason they seem to drop off is becaus they cant keep their players but try to stay competetive by buying smart. Arsenal has a much bigger stature than those clubs and in recent years didnt have to sell their best players, yet we still didnt/dont compete. The manager is the one identifying these players who are not taking us to the next level. Every time you get the feeling we are close to the elite teams we have an abysmal transfer window. No sane person expects arsenal to win title after title or to dominate europe, we just dont want the team to get embarrassed every year and be genuine contenders throughout the season. Those are realistic expectations for a club the size of arsenal.

Real madrid have at the start of guardiolas career consistently outspend barcelona during that time and were still second best in the league, often times even humiliated by them. I cant mention bayern becaus "they can pick all the best players from the bundesliga". Next to every argument against your squad cost theory is another excuse to neglect the incompetancies of this football club. Also tottenham and liverpool spending millions on average players and regressing. So no i dont think squad cost is a decisive factor. What i think that is far more important is adressing the needs of a squad and buying smart to be able to keep improving. Arsenal has done neither, and wenger is responsible for this. And yes you do need money for that but, i have to say it, arsenal has the financial power to do this.

 

[Makingtrax]

You really are a one man army in this thread, in some ways i do respect your stubbornness (perhaps this is the reason why you are so attached to wenger?). Also why cant i mention arsenal? its the only club i care about and the reason why im even responding in this thread.

According to your squad cost theory the team that spends the most always wins the tittle, this is not true. Look at athletico madrid and dortmund, im not even metioning leicter city and monaco or monteplier becaus the first teams i mentioned have, over the past 6 years or so, been able to consistenly compete with clubs far richer than themselves. The reason they seem to drop off is becaus they cant keep their players but try to stay competetive by buying smart. Arsenal has a much bigger stature than those clubs and in recent years didnt have to sell their best players, yet we still didnt/dont compete. The manager is the one identifying these players who are not taking us to the next level. Every time you get the feeling we are close to the elite teams we have an abysmal transfer window. No sane person expects arsenal to win title after title or to dominate europe, we just dont want the team to get embarrassed every year and be genuine contenders throughout the season. Those are realistic expectations for a club the size of arsenal.

Real madrid have at the start of guardiolas career consistently outspend barcelona during that time and were still second best in the league, often times even humiliated by them. I cant mention bayern becaus "they can pick all the best players from the bundesliga". Next to every argument against your squad cost theory is another excuse to neglect the incompetancies of this football club. Also tottenham and liverpool spending millions on average players and regressing. So no i dont think squad cost is a decisive factor. What i think that is far more important is adressing the needs of a squad and buying smart to be able to keep improving. Arsenal has done neither, and wenger is responsible for this. And yes you do need money for that but, i have to say it, arsenal has the financial power to do this.

Sorry bro, this is Groundhog Day.

 

[Dj_sds]

Sorry bro, this is Groundhog Day.

Yes it is, every page you mention squad cost.

 

[Sanchez11]

At the end of the day we want to win the title. Can Wenger deliver it i dont think so, on a level playing field maybe.