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Bruno Guimarães

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MikelHadADream

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Fergie got good value out of all those players apart from Stam, and you’re talking about a few players over 27 years, we’re talking about a few players over 3 years, it is simply not acceptable management.

Douzi was immature but a lot of men just develop late in their 20s, AM thinking Douzi was the most intolerable guy when there must be tons of immature young millionaires in the PL, their clubs just protect them more.

He came here from Ligue 2 as a teenager and within 12 months he was one of the most valuable young players in Europe, he was one of our most successful transfers post-Wenger by a distance.

And the great irony is that the incident which triggered his exile is the very thing that showed why he was so valuable. I’d give ten Lokongas for one Guendouzi.

For me it wasn't even the fact he disliked Douzi or didn't rate him as a player. That happens. Its how public he made the situation, he wanted to look like he's in charge and let everyone know he's dealing with the supposed rotten apple.

In the process he tanked his value and spent money to replace him with an inferior player. Guy hasn't learnt and has done the same with Auba. Ironic we are desperately short in both numbers and quality at CF and CM now.
 

14Henry

Looking for receipts 👀
That’s 4 players, could add AMN to the mix as well tbh.

Why don’t we hear stories like this from other clubs, how do they maintain discipline without exiling players all the time? Do they just have better behaved players or do their managers find a way to enforce discipline without setting fire to a player’s value.

Players are assets, Arteta is a bad asset manager.
Grealish at Villa and City has had problems. And was dropped. Walker the same. Foden also.

We've seen Greenwood and Foden have problems with England and was in the media and consequences.

Maddison and Leciester was dropped and fined from memory based on going to casino the day of matches or something.

There's plenty of examples.
 

El Duderino

Thank You For Your Interest In Our Affairs
Moderator
Good management is a mix of both?

What Arteta is doing is tanking the value of a bunch of people in the squad and it literally sends the message that he only want yes men.

This is football, egos are part of the game. You either deal with them or you're always going have less talent available to you.

Plus, Wenger dealt with big egos left right and centre and it's the textbook definition of you catch more flies with honey.

Henry, Alexis, Viera, Gallas, Alexis, the list goes on (Though his powerplay with Alexis did fail, I'm not denying it).
 

El Duderino

Thank You For Your Interest In Our Affairs
Moderator
Think @MikelHadADream naild it, you can keep things in house.

Back on topic, Bruno and Luiz are different players.

I see the latter releasing Partey a lot more to play between the lines.

Neither of them can play a single pivot iirc, tho.
 

lomekian

Well-Known Member
Good management is a mix of both?

What Arteta is doing is tanking the value of a bunch of people in the squad and it literally sends the message that he only want yes men.

This is football, egos are part of the game. You either deal with them or you're always going have less talent available to you.

Plus, Wenger dealt with big egos left right and centre and it's the textbook definition of you catch more flies with honey.

Henry, Alexis, Viera, Gallas, Alexis, the list goes on (Though his powerplay with Alexis did fail, I'm not denying it).

You use Wenger managing big egos to justify your criticism of Arteta...poor poor choice.

Henry/Vieira/RVP were huge egos yes, but also famously consummate professionals in a dressing room of incredibly strong senior pros who wouldn't take any **** and imposed the highest possible standards, which these players, driven to be the worlds best, took up and maintained.

Alexis was one of the best players in the EPL so was indulged, but eventually tanked team morale and the squad wanted him out.

Gallas totally destroyed team morale, partially costing us the 08 title, and led to several senior players leaving the club.

When Wenger had great pros and a strong dressing room it worked, espeically as they were world class players.
Then he had less of strong dressing room, and the players were worse.
Eventually the internal club culture became visably toxic, full of free-loaders and people on huge wages taking the piss.

Arteta has seen first hand what happens when at Arsenal if standards aren't maintained.

Could he be more subtle? Yes. But most of the harsh calls he's made have been at least partially vidicated.

This is the first year Guendouzi hasn't fallen out with his coaches and team-mates (and there were early season complaints)
Özil (bar one good month) has stunk the place out in Turkey
Auba, much as I love him, has lost his way a bit (and this can't all be down to one lateness, lets be honest). ITs telling for a player that is so popular on a personal level, that the rest of the team don't seem to give a monkeys that he's banished.

Who else has been exiled who anyone gives a monkeys about?
AMN was never exiled, just didn't get game time (if only his focus matched his talent)
He's binned people off who aren't good enough, but that's different - most haven't been missed.

Would I have been so overt in public? No. But presumably he's sending a message to the rest of the squad - And I guess a disappearing captain is something you can't keep under your hat
 

El Duderino

Thank You For Your Interest In Our Affairs
Moderator
You use Wenger managing big egos to justify your criticism of Arteta...poor poor choice.

Henry/Vieira/RVP were huge egos yes, but also famously consummate professionals in a dressing room of incredibly strong senior pros who wouldn't take any **** and imposed the highest possible standards, which these players, driven to be the worlds best, took up and maintained.

Alexis was one of the best players in the EPL so was indulged, but eventually tanked team morale and the squad wanted him out.

Gallas totally destroyed team morale, partially costing us the 08 title, and led to several senior players leaving the club.

When Wenger had great pros and a strong dressing room it worked, espeically as they were world class players.
Then he had less of strong dressing room, and the players were worse.
Eventually the internal club culture became visably toxic, full of free-loaders and people on huge wages taking the piss.

Arteta has seen first hand what happens when at Arsenal if standards aren't maintained.

Could he be more subtle? Yes. But most of the harsh calls he's made have been at least partially vidicated.

This is the first year Guendouzi hasn't fallen out with his coaches and team-mates (and there were early season complaints)
Özil (bar one good month) has stunk the place out in Turkey
Auba, much as I love him, has lost his way a bit (and this can't all be down to one lateness, lets be honest). ITs telling for a player that is so popular on a personal level, that the rest of the team don't seem to give a monkeys that he's banished.

Who else has been exiled who anyone gives a monkeys about?
AMN was never exiled, just didn't get game time (if only his focus matched his talent)
He's binned people off who aren't good enough, but that's different - most haven't been missed.

Would I have been so overt in public? No. But presumably he's sending a message to the rest of the squad - And I guess a disappearing captain is something you can't keep under your hat

Did Wenger ever do his dirty laundry in public? I don't care the manager's axing people as much as I do that he's doing it publically. It doesn't do anyone any favours.

Moreover, Wenger literally came into the team full of Arsenal living legends and got buy in from players while changing the whole club structure, nutricion, etc. No matter how professional you are, if your manager doesn't get you to buy in to his project, you slack and that never happened. You can't just put it down to the players, specially given what Wenger achieved throughout his career and how he managed to keep the team making top 4 every year bar two.

There's ways to skin a cat, and I just seriously dislike Arteta's because he's too far gone the other way. Schorches way too much earth and you're left with little to build on.
 

El Duderino

Thank You For Your Interest In Our Affairs
Moderator
So much conflicting info around this one. It did seem weird that he’d jump at the chance. Yeah he’d earn more money but if he waited 5 months he could earn similar and be at a much bigger club.

Feels strange, yes. But I reckon it gets done Newcastle's way. He's been on the shopping window for 6 months already.
 

lomekian

Well-Known Member
Did Wenger ever do his dirty laundry in public? I don't care the manager's axing people as much as I do that he's doing it publically. It doesn't do anyone any favours.

Moreover, Wenger literally came into the team full of Arsenal living legends and got buy in from players while changing the whole club structure, nutricion, etc. No matter how professional you are, if your manager doesn't get you to buy in to his project, you slack and that never happened. You can't just put it down to the players, specially given what Wenger achieved throughout his career and how he managed to keep the team making top 4 every year bar two.

There's ways to skin a cat, and I just seriously dislike Arteta's because he's too far gone the other way. Schorches way too much earth and you're left with little to build on.
The one time Wenger did, it went terribly wrong because he capitulated after one bad half. I agree that doing it publicly seem strange, but Arteta is not a cretin, so must have reasons (particularly for the club to both back him and put out a statement online). This isn't ranting under pressure or letting something slip - this is a clear strategy supported by others with power. Maybe its wage bill reduction? Obviously that wasn't the reason with Guendouzi, but while he hopefully is maturing now, there's a guy who's been put on the naughty step publicly by 3 clubs in a row before this loan.

Re Wenger & buy in - of course that was great, but its a completely different thing. All he had to do was prove to them that it would make them better, because they were a supreme group of self starters. He also had massive credit in the bank - he'd brought Vieira before he turned up who was clear the mutts nuts, and most of what he was talking about Bergkamp was already doing - and he walked into a room where top pros had got sick of the team being mediocre. Apart from Wrighty and the likes of Hartson and the Merse, all the others made it clear they came on boards without needing to be convinced.

Of course, at his peak, Wenger was a genius operating with competitive advantages in a much less competitive environement. He was the perfect man for us, and was ultimately let down by ownership, and then stayed too long. I don't think any sane person would compare Arteta favourably to peak Wenger, but he's got his own way of approaching a much harder job than Wenger had, and given some encouraging signs both on the pitch and strategically, I'm inclined to give the benefit of the doubt in the absence of further info. I do agree that it may have been better to not put everything on the table until next steps were actually in motion, but maybe next steps were dependent on going public first?
 

GoonerJeeves

Up The Terriers
Trusted ⭐
Did Wenger ever do his dirty laundry in public? I don't care the manager's axing people as much as I do that he's doing it publically. It doesn't do anyone any favours.

Moreover, Wenger literally came into the team full of Arsenal living legends and got buy in from players while changing the whole club structure, nutricion, etc. No matter how professional you are, if your manager doesn't get you to buy in to his project, you slack and that never happened. You can't just put it down to the players, specially given what Wenger achieved throughout his career and how he managed to keep the team making top 4 every year bar two.

There's ways to skin a cat, and I just seriously dislike Arteta's because he's too far gone the other way. Schorches way too much earth and you're left with little to build on.
I think the comparison with Wenger is somewhat skewed. Wenger was already an experienced manager, and while the Arsenal squad he inherited had its peculiarities, it had been managed by two strict disciplinarians in Graham and Rioch. I'd argue that Wenger had an easier task that he was better prepared for.

Arteta inherited a squad that had taken over the dressing room under Emery. Freddie no doubt informed Arteta on the squad. I think it is clear that Arteta has felt the need to stamp his authority hard. Over time, I think he will mellow a bit, and find other ways, but overall I think the squad needed a sharp shock. The way Emery was ridiculed was undignified and reflected very badly on the players and the club.

Wenger said something that I think is very true, and I paraphrase here: "The relationship between the manager and players has gone from the vertical to the horisontal" In this he meant the relative power. The manager does not have the same power over the players as before. Arteta will have to learn this, over time you need more subtle means.
 

ExtjExhtts

=Ex timo jens Ex Highbury two thousand six
I think the comparison with Wenger is somewhat skewed. Wenger was already an experienced manager, and while the Arsenal squad he inherited had its peculiarities, it had been managed by two strict disciplinarians in Graham and Rioch. I'd argue that Wenger had an easier task that he was better prepared for.

Arteta inherited a squad that had taken over the dressing room under Emery. Freddie no doubt informed Arteta on the squad. I think it is clear that Arteta has felt the need to stamp his authority hard. Over time, I think he will mellow a bit, and find other ways, but overall I think the squad needed a sharp shock. The way Emery was ridiculed was undignified and reflected very badly on the players and the club.

Wenger said something that I think is very true, and I paraphrase here: "The relationship between the manager and players has gone from the vertical to the horisontal" In this he meant the relative power. The manager does not have the same power over the players as before. Arteta will have to learn this, over time you need more subtle means.

Personally i think Arteta is a narcissist.
 

isop

Active Member
Just looking at his basic fbref profile he looks like a pure dm really, similar to Kalvin Philips. A lot of people love Kalvin Phillips, personally I don’t but that’s just personal preference. It’s certainly not a like-for-like replacement for Xhaka.

You look at other diminutive DMs like Bennacer and Caqueret and they seem to do Luiz’s defensive work but with much better passing.
Phllips actually has more ability. He actually started off as an amf, then became an all round box to box cmf, then Bielsa moved him to play as dmf, a dlp. He can do all round things, defending well and passing well with a good range, with decent dribbling as well.

Guimaraes is a similar player who can do different things well too. I like players with all round abilities because it makes us more adaptable.
 

Yonki

Member
Personally i think Arteta is a narcissist.
I'm a psychiatrist and I must agree with you. But there are multiple levels to narcissism and some get very far in modern life with such traits. If he uses them correctly we are in for a ride. If not.... he burns the place down with him.
 

Sebastes

Statbomb Merchant
Trusted ⭐
I'm a psychiatrist and I must agree with you. But there are multiple levels to narcissism and some get very far in modern life with such traits. If he uses them correctly we are in for a ride. If not.... he burns the place down with him.
Interesting! Curious question for you my friend; I was called a narcissist by a psychiatrist once, on the back of a 40 min session. Is that enough to figure that out in your experience? I’m not like manipulative and so and I don’t think it’d super obvious, but then I do have great self esteem :drool:
 

Rasmi

Got 7 accusations last 3 years. Not my fault 🤦‍♂️
If he goes to Newcastle it is because he knows he is not good enough for the arsenal
It’s matter of time before Newcastle is better than Arsenal. Reminds me of early days city where we used to look down on them. Newcastle is offering him 4 times his current wages while Arsenal is all talk
 
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