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✍️ OFFICIAL Marquinhos (Loan)

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lomekian

Essays are my thing
Remember how Omari Hutchinson and ACD could've broken through the first team squad that season but then this guy came and immediately got minutes in the EL and sub appearances in PL.

Still not sure on what merit except to appease Edu.
Remember how he scored and assisted on his European debut after nearly 40 senior apperances in Brazil by the time ACD had 3 u21 appearances, and Hutchinson was in Chelsea's u21 squad?

Sure he hasn't worked out, but he was physically ready when he joined and ACD was just 16 and clearly wasn't, and Hutchinson had forced a move to Chelsea (the team he supported growing up) for a wage 3 times what we offered by refusing to sign a new deal over the preceding 12 months of contract discussions.

Facts may not suit the narrative, but you can't simply pretend they don't exist.
 

berric

Established Member

Player:Trossard
Remember how he scored and assisted on his European debut after nearly 40 senior apperances in Brazil by the time ACD had 3 u21 appearances, and Hutchinson was in Chelsea's u21 squad?

Sure he hasn't worked out, but he was physically ready when he joined and ACD was just 16 and clearly wasn't, and Hutchinson had forced a move to Chelsea (the team he supported growing up) for a wage 3 times what we offered by refusing to sign a new deal over the preceding 12 months of contract discussions.

Facts may not suit the narrative, but you can't simply pretend they don't exist.

We signed a nobody from Brazil and immediately gave him the "young upcoming RW" spot when we had a plethora of talented youngsters waiting to be at least spoonfed 5-10 minutes in any game.

He scored and assisted on his debut and then what? Was filling up a spot until someone realized it's most probably Edu's money laundering scheme.
 

lomekian

Essays are my thing
We signed a nobody from Brazil and immediately gave him the "young upcoming RW" spot when we had a plethora of talented youngsters waiting to be at least spoonfed 5-10 minutes in any game.

He scored and assisted on his debut and then what? Was filling up a spot until someone realized it's most probably Edu's money laundering scheme.
Who else did we have in that position? Hutchinson had left having forced a move and ACD was 16 and stick thin and hadn't even played in the u21s. Seb Ferdinand is ok at best at u18 level. We literally had no-one else, and his impactful opening game would surely have got him some credit. Within a few months the club realised he wasn't it and loaned him out thus removing any blockage for the then just turned 17 ACD.

Sometimes you have to include facts when constructing your storyline.
 

berric

Established Member

Player:Trossard
Who else did we have in that position? Hutchinson had left having forced a move and ACD was 16 and stick thin and hadn't even played in the u21s. Seb Ferdinand is ok at best at u18 level. We literally had no-one else, and his impactful opening game would surely have got him some credit. Within a few months the club realised he wasn't it and loaned him out thus removing any blockage for the then just turned 17 ACD.

Sometimes you have to include facts when constructing your storyline.

Omari did force a move but at the time it was widely implied it was due to a lack of playing time with his future cemented when Edu brought in an RW in the same age bracket who was immediately favored, no?

You cling on ACD but I mentioned him as he was widely talked about at the time - the age didn't stop other coaches who debut players at 17 years old to, if nothing, rise their stock a bit.

You had Omari, Salah, Taylor-Hart, etc, etc who would've had the same zero-impact from RW as Marq throughout the season but could work wonders in the grand scheme of things - rising value, preparing for a loan, message for other academy players that there's a path to the first team there.

And about your question at the beginning? Laughable. Maybe if the folks in charge weren't inept in building a squad we wouldn't have this absurd conversation.

Oh and how's this for a fact -FIFTH year of Arteta, ZERO Hale Enders brought in.
 

BBF

Real name: Ragip Xh...

Country: Netherlands
Trust me when I say that is not how Brazillian teams roll.

Like, at all.

Literally. If Sao Paulo get a wonderkid anytime in the near future there's no way they're going to do us any favours. I'd actually expect them to fleece us if we're really being honest.
 

El Duderino

That's, like, your opinion, man.
Moderator
Literally. If Sao Paulo get a wonderkid anytime in the near future there's no way they're going to do us any favours. I'd actually expect them to fleece us if we're really being honest.

Money talks, if we offer enough and get the player on board that's all it takes.

Young players from Brazil are always a gamble anyway. Even Vini was having ups and downs at Madrid under Zidane. Carlo is the guy who changed things.

Martinelli was a known quantity, Emery and Mikel did well with him and even then he's hit a bit of a wall in his development this season.

It happens, it wasn't that much money, but we never needed to offer all that for him.

Hopefully he does well at Fluminense under Diniz, but I can't see many clubs in Brazil paying our investment back. 15m+ BRL is a lot of money.
 
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MutableEarth

Reiss' Dad
Trusted ⭐
Remember how he scored and assisted on his European debut after nearly 40 senior apperances in Brazil by the time ACD had 3 u21 appearances, and Hutchinson was in Chelsea's u21 squad?

Sure he hasn't worked out, but he was physically ready when he joined and ACD was just 16 and clearly wasn't, and Hutchinson had forced a move to Chelsea (the team he supported growing up) for a wage 3 times what we offered by refusing to sign a new deal over the preceding 12 months of contract discussions.

Facts may not suit the narrative, but you can't simply pretend they don't exist.
While this is true.....

The only impressive thing about Marquinhos is his physical readiness. Nice left foot too on occasion, I'll give him that. For all those appearances, and physical readiness, whenever he appeared on the same pitch as Cozier-Duberry, the latter often looked far superior despite being of lesser stature and much lesser experience.

Fair, Cozier-Duberry wasn't ready then and I wouldn't argue that but it hasn't taken him long to outgrow U21 football. I don't think it would take him long to overtake Marquinhos as a senior player. He'd literally only need to play. Be interesting to see what happens with Cozier-Duberry this Summer. Ideally, he'll go on loan and sign a deal.
 

lomekian

Essays are my thing
Omari did force a move but at the time it was widely implied it was due to a lack of playing time with his future cemented when Edu brought in an RW in the same age bracket who was immediately favored, no?

You cling on ACD but I mentioned him as he was widely talked about at the time - the age didn't stop other coaches who debut players at 17 years old to, if nothing, rise their stock a bit.

You had Omari, Salah, Taylor-Hart, etc, etc who would've had the same zero-impact from RW as Marq throughout the season but could work wonders in the grand scheme of things - rising value, preparing for a loan, message for other academy players that there's a path to the first team there.

And about your question at the beginning? Laughable. Maybe if the folks in charge weren't inept in building a squad we wouldn't have this absurd conversation.

Oh and how's this for a fact -FIFTH year of Arteta, ZERO Hale Enders brought in.
Re Omari - the narrative that he left because we brought in Marquinhos struggles when one considers that he had spent 12 months turning down contract offers and his agent was already in touch with Chelsea. If anything the more logical conclusion is that Marquinhos was brought in to replace the departing Hutchinson, though I'm not going to confuse correlation and causation.

Re ACD, he had played 3 u21 games by that point. He wasn't widely talked about until a few months later. Most players who debut at 17 for big clubs are both more physically and tactically developed than Amario was then (and possibly still now), and tend to be the cream of their academies.

Salah can't play on the right, was out with a long term injury, and has barely played for anyone at any level in the 18 months since we signed Marquinhos. Taylor-Hart has done f-all at any level either here or on loan since 2021, and can't even get minutes in non-league football.

And while Areta hasn't brought any hale-enders into significant appearances, he has given at least 1 hale end debut every year since he's been here. None of them are remotely ready for significant minutes and the vast majority will be lucky to play at the top level at all. I'm disappointed to lose Sousa because the's the oldest (slightly older than Walters) of the guys I believe have any hope in hell of ever playing at the level we are competing at. Sadly, even Patino looks unlikely at this stage because he's had almost zero physical development past the age of 17.

You call my question laughable, yet in countering it you bring up Salah and Taylor-Hart who will both be lucky to have professional careers at all at this stage. What exactly would be the point in relying on them for minutes, given one was injured anyway, and the other had been absolutely terrible the previous 12 months and worse since?

Trust me, I'm as keen on blooding youth as anyone, but I really don't see missed opportunities. The ones who have deserved looks have nearly all got them (bar maybe a couple of missed opportunites this year). Everytime someone criticises the club on this in a major way, they cite guys who are built like schoolkids (or are still schoolkids) or players who are absolutely nowhere near the level. Yes Walters probably should have got some minutes in EFL cup and vs Lens at home this season, but bar Balogun, no-one else has whether in our u21s or on loan given any indication of being able to play at this level. Sousa I had hope for, but this year he had taken a step backwards and then had stopped being picked even at u21 level. But the previous lot like Taylor-Hart, Salah, Foran, Azeez (Arteta debut!), Rekik, Henry-Francis, Bandeira, Flores, Vigar, Awe, Ideho, Smith (cup winning legend), Alebiosu, Cottrell, Ogungbo, Cirjan, Moller, McEnuff, Lopez, Osei-Tutu, Olayinka, Medley, Bola, Oyegoke, Omole, Amaechi, Gilmour - none of them have shown anything to suggest they were worth even a look at any point. Ballard, McGuinees, Plezuguelo & Sheaf have done pretty well in the championship, as has Hutchinson on loan to a lesser degree. But again not one good enough for any minutes for the Arsenal. And that's every player that's left the u21s since Arteta got here bar Balogun and the guys currently on loan.

So when you are saying he should given chances to people, again the question is - who?
 

lomekian

Essays are my thing
While this is true.....

The only impressive thing about Marquinhos is his physical readiness. Nice left foot too on occasion, I'll give him that. For all those appearances, and physical readiness, whenever he appeared on the same pitch as Cozier-Duberry, the latter often looked far superior despite being of lesser stature and much lesser experience.

Fair, Cozier-Duberry wasn't ready then and I wouldn't argue that but it hasn't taken him long to outgrow U21 football. I don't think it would take him long to overtake Marquinhos as a senior player. He'd literally only need to play. Be interesting to see what happens with Cozier-Duberry this Summer. Ideally, he'll go on loan and sign a deal.
Oh i quite agree. Marquinhos was strong and had a good left foot. Nothing else about him at all for me, and I wasn't enthused when we bought him, but 3m is hardly a huge investment. ACD the much more interesting player, but when Marquhinhos was signed, he was just 17 and had 3 u21 games to his name, with no guarantees from those that he was going to be able to hack it at that level. I think as far as the club is concerned he has overtaken marqhinhos already, and had by the summer.
 

berric

Established Member

Player:Trossard
You call my question laughable, yet in countering it you bring up Salah and Taylor-Hart who will both be lucky to have professional careers at all at this stage. What exactly would be the point in relying on them for minutes, given one was injured anyway, and the other had been absolutely terrible the previous 12 months and worse since?

Trust me, I'm as keen on blooding youth as anyone, but I really don't see missed opportunities. The ones who have deserved looks have nearly all got them (bar maybe a couple of missed opportunites this year). Everytime someone criticises the club on this in a major way, they cite guys who are built like schoolkids (or are still schoolkids) or players who are absolutely nowhere near the level. Yes Walters probably should have got some minutes in EFL cup and vs Lens at home this season, but bar Balogun, no-one else has whether in our u21s or on loan given any indication of being able to play at this level. Sousa I had hope for, but this year he had taken a step backwards and then had stopped being picked even at u21 level. But the previous lot like Taylor-Hart, Salah, Foran, Azeez (Arteta debut!), Rekik, Henry-Francis, Bandeira, Flores, Vigar, Awe, Ideho, Smith (cup winning legend), Alebiosu, Cottrell, Ogungbo, Cirjan, Moller, McEnuff, Lopez, Osei-Tutu, Olayinka, Medley, Bola, Oyegoke, Omole, Amaechi, Gilmour - none of them have shown anything to suggest they were worth even a look at any point. Ballard, McGuinees, Plezuguelo & Sheaf have done pretty well in the championship, as has Hutchinson on loan to a lesser degree. But again not one good enough for any minutes for the Arsenal. And that's every player that's left the u21s since Arteta got here bar Balogun and the guys currently on loan.

So when you are saying he should given chances to people, again the question is - who?

Thanks for taking the time to write this all up, appreciate it. But to not push this into further essays about individuals - it's not Marqunihos signing that irked me, it's the manner of the signing and how he was (with more or less the same talent) pushed up the pecking order blocking any young attacking individual from coming on.

This wouldn't be an issue if not for the lack of system in place to brood in youngsters already at the club.

And I don't understand the naming of all those players who haven't made it. 90% of youngsters won't make it at the top level, but you just HAVE to give them a chance.

Klopp debuted 19 teenagers in the Premier League league only in his 8.5-year stint. That's not counting 20-year-olds. Only Trent, Elliot, and Jones "made it" but it still didn't stop him? Do you know how many teens Teta debuted in the league since he came? One. That was Nwaneri in that absurd moment that is now looking more like a political move or setting a personal record or something.
 

Country: Denmark
While I agree that Arteta is not fond of bringing youngsters through the ranks, let's remember that we have one of the youngest squads in the Premier League which we cannot fault him.

To be fair, he fielded Nketiah when he was a very young a raw talent, and keeps on doing so!

Would do you guys want? An even younger player to rotate with Saka and Martinelli or Saliba? Declan Rice was purchased young as a part of getting rid of older players - which we now also fault him for.

I still think back with horror to the 07-09/10 years when we would see players like Alliadiere, Jay Emmanuel Thomas, Denilson, Jay Simpson and even at some point believed that Carlos Vela was the next Messi. Frimpong perhaps the greatest one of all. Jenkinson also definitely up there. And this is not even close to being 1/3 of what we saw during those years.
While Ramsey and Wilshere had amazing spells during their careers, we also played them at a very early stage that perhaps was too early - from a team performance point of view.
 

Blood on the Tracks

AG's best friend, role model and mentor.
Trusted ⭐

Country: England

Player:Rice
It was a punt signing, doesn't seem like he'll ever reach the standards required here. It happens, we paid peanuts for him.

Get our money back and it's fine.
 

Jasard

Forum Issue Troubleshooter
Moderator

Country: England
Questions over our ability to spot talent but not about us taking punts. Everyone always complains about us not signing players before they become 50m+ in value.

Seems a redundant approach for us anyway, we simply dont have the mechanisms for giving those players minutes. Unless we replicate the Chelsea loan spam and sell system.
 

outlawz

Active Member
Omari did force a move but at the time it was widely implied it was due to a lack of playing time with his future cemented when Edu brought in an RW in the same age bracket who was immediately favored, no?

You cling on ACD but I mentioned him as he was widely talked about at the time - the age didn't stop other coaches who debut players at 17 years old to, if nothing, rise their stock a bit.

You had Omari, Salah, Taylor-Hart, etc, etc who would've had the same zero-impact from RW as Marq throughout the season but could work wonders in the grand scheme of things - rising value, preparing for a loan, message for other academy players that there's a path to the first team there.

And about your question at the beginning? Laughable. Maybe if the folks in charge weren't inept in building a squad we wouldn't have this absurd conversation.

Oh and how's this for a fact -FIFTH year of Arteta, ZERO Hale Enders brought in.
We have the youngest team in the league and you want us to become even younger? Despite, Nwaneri coming on last week. You my sir aren't very bright.
 

berric

Established Member

Player:Trossard
We have the youngest team in the league and you want us to become even younger? Despite, Nwaneri coming on last week. You my sir aren't very bright.

Check the date of that post you muppet, was two weeks before Nwnaeri got a sniff.

I gave Arteta credit for finally bringing in a youth player as well, so no point in continuing with that debate.
 

outlawz

Active Member
Check the date of that post you muppet, was two weeks before Nwnaeri got a sniff.

I gave Arteta credit for finally bringing in a youth player as well, so no point in continuing with that debate.
Even better, so turns out you were whining in vain.
 

berric

Established Member

Player:Trossard
Even better, so turns out you were whining in vain.

The point still stands. Even Arteta acknowledged it in the post-match conference, he probably wanted to throw a half-wit Jorginho in but he begged him to play the kid instead.
 
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