Midfield - Passing Problem?

[MikelHadADream]

every stats shows arteta is close to Dyche in style. But the way he talks and his past with guardiola and offcourse being spanish people assume he loves ball retention attacking football. Even after 2 years people refuse to see his style for what it is

The team doesn't really have an identity. More often than not we sit back, but then once we win the ball back we don't counter. The lack of movement and willingness to play the ball in behind is really annoying.

 

[Rasmi]

The team doesn't really have an identity. More often than not we sit back, but then once we win the ball back we don't counter. The lack of movement and willingness to play the ball in behind is really annoying.

Sounds exactly like Man U with Ole. No identity or clear structure. The team get by on individual players. With the team we have we will get 7-9 by mainly beating weaker teams and we will have another year with Arteta and people saying you can’t do better with this squad

We heard the same lazy nonsense with lampard and chael and as soon as Tuchel come in and improved. Suddenly they have world class squad

 

[hydrofluoric acid]

Yeah midfield is massive problem. Maybe less so if Arteta can get Partey to mask over the flaws of Xhaka and they make decent partnership.

But we are probably two major cm signings away from being able to compete for EL spot.

 

[Riou]

Arsène being a very attacking manager, plus us having better players back then are the main reasons we have declined in that regard.

2014/2015 is the last time I was really happy with Arsenal...we had the likes of Özil/Ramsey/Cazorla etc, all playing at the same time in their prime...we have some good players now, but that's quite a drop in those areas.

We don't have to play to that level to be a good team though, but Arteta needs to keep the team improving in how we attack...as I said we still have some quality players, we need to be doing better.

 

[Batman]

The team doesn't really have an identity. More often than not we sit back, but then once we win the ball back we don't counter. The lack of movement and willingness to play the ball in behind is really annoying.

This has been the issue for years, although certainly it's been magnified under Arteta. I think it really began when we started to have some money to spend after the stadium debt decreased sufficiently. Instead of buying players who specifically fit a desired profile within a defined system, we would look to get the best good player with a "name" who became available at a price we could afford and try to cobble a team together like that over several windows. It simply doesn't work if you want to win the big trophies. Their individual quality could often take you to say a 4th place finish and a deep cup run because you're facing a lot of smaller teams with a worse manager and less talent but the consistent failings against big clubs for years now is emblematic of teams that quite simply do not fit together properly and are not purpose built. Nobody can honestly tell you what Arteta wants to do other than be hard to score against which is fine until you remember that a team that never concedes won't win anything if it can't score and that this is Arsenal and not Stoke. In principle, it's not a bad thing to want to be difficult to score against but for a club with supposed ambition, there has to be something beyond that.

Even in games where we flounder, we should be seeing some sort of skeleton of an attacking style. The closest we've come to that was letting Tierney whip crosses to nobody for 90 minutes and that is deeply concerning. Every quality manager that you see take over a club seems capable of producing at the very least some flashes of what their preferred patterns of play and moves to create high percentage chances could become consistently within a period of months. Arteta has had 2 years and we still haven't seen anything going forward that looks fluid or repeatable. I don't see how anyone could be ok with that when the man played under Wenger and sat next to Pep for a combined decade but cannot seem to replicate even a fraction of their fluidity in attack. It would be like if Steve Kerr, having played under the 2 best coaches in the modern NBA in Gregg Popovich and Phil Jackson just had no idea how to instill an identity in his team. Of course in his case, the Warriors have a very clear identity with very clear tenets of both the Triangle offense under Jackson and the great team defense under Popovich. After 2 years having seen not so much as a whiff of Pep or Wenger about Arteta, it's time to stop looking. He's Big Sam in a little exotic package, nothing more.

 

[Riou]

He's Big Sam in a little exotic package, nothing more.

...Mikel's twin, tbf.

 

[Blankety Blank]

Great thread.

Most of the forum wanted a class midfielder in the summer, unfortunately, most of the forum also settled for Odergaard .

However, no matter who you get, he will still have to contend with Arteta's incompetence and eventually underperform.

Class midfielders do not grow on trees!!
Nothing wrong with Ode btw Its just very difficult to find a midfielder that is creative & can stand up to the physical demands of the modern prem every week.
On the times we have tried him deeper he has imo struggled.
I like him further forward although in time he may adapt & be able to play deeper?

Im sure we will sign another midfielder but its not easy to find a top quality creative one. Look around I know man u have Pogba & Bruno but they get slated for playing the McFred Combo.

Im sure Arteta wants another CM & more creativity if possible.
However Its just not as easy as some suggest. Arsène loved a good midfielder but he struggled later in his time here & we were left with Xhaka & Elneny. Unai brought in Torreira & douzi While Arteta has brought In Partey & Sambi.

 

[blrgooner]

It's not necessarily possession, just a lack of progressive passing a creativity from midfield in general, also lack of movement too, virtually no third man runs to help open up defences. Our structure in the buildup is fairly good in fairness but once we get to the final third there's very little.

When Ødegaard plays I'd like him to stay higher up the pitch instead of always dropping deeper. But you could also say perhaps our midfielders can't always find him in those positions so he might drop deep out of necessity.

I think our structure and buildup are fairly good only against smaller teams and that too only when they sit back. Against good teams, we can`t get the buildup going at all like we saw against Liverpool. Also, playing two forwards both of whom are one touch players(Players who don`t hold the ball) means that they really can`t get involved in any buildup from the midfield(Except for counter attacks).
I actually don`t like the 4 4 2 we are playing now and the 4 3 3 we played with Ødegaard in the midfield two. Both of them are based on the idea that just having more strikers/attacking players in the playing X1 would make us more attacking which is not correct IMO. With the 4 4 2, we are basically reliant on opposition mistakes and once we go 1-2 goals up and want to have a compact midfield, we can`t create any more chances because we lack ability in the midfield to build up moves.
With the 4 3 3 with Ødegaard in the middle, We are unable to stop the opposition midfield from overloading our midfield because Ode doesn`t cover the midfield spaces well enough defensively. Without actually being able to win the ball from the opposition, we usually don`t have too many quick attacking moves.
I think the 4 2 3 1 which we played against Sp**s is our best formation given our squad. With this, we can have a variation of quick counter attacking game which we saw against Sp**s as well as the buildup game which we saw against Norwich. We played that formation only once after that at Brighton. This would also mean that there would be more scenarios where Ødegaard can stay higher up the pitch as you mention.

Individually, I don`t think there is anything wrong with the Partey/Sambi/Ødegaard midfield. Ødegaard has had like 2 bad games this season against Brighton/Crystal Palace. After that he was dropped(correctly) which had more to do with the fact that Laca seemed to be in good form rather than Ødegaard`s poor form IMO. None of our other midfielders or forwards have been consistently good anyways (Including Partey who is supposed to have been a world class signing). The criticism which a 22 year old Ødegaard gets after 2 bad games is silly IMO.

 

[The_Playmaker]

I think our structure and buildup are fairly good only against smaller teams and that too only when they sit back. Against good teams, we can`t get the buildup going at all like we saw against Liverpool. Also, playing two forwards both of whom are one touch players(Players who don`t hold the ball) means that they really can`t get involved in any buildup from the midfield(Except for counter attacks).
I actually don`t like the 4 4 2 we are playing now and the 4 3 3 we played with Ødegaard in the midfield two. Both of them are based on the idea that just having more strikers/attacking players in the playing X1 would make us more attacking which is not correct IMO. With the 4 4 2, we are basically reliant on opposition mistakes and once we go 1-2 goals up and want to have a compact midfield, we can`t create any more chances because we lack ability in the midfield to build up moves.
With the 4 3 3 with Ødegaard in the middle, We are unable to stop the opposition midfield from overloading our midfield because Ode doesn`t cover the midfield spaces well enough defensively. Without actually being able to win the ball from the opposition, we usually don`t have too many quick attacking moves.
I think the 4 2 3 1 which we played against Sp**s is our best formation given our squad. With this, we can have a variation of quick counter attacking game which we saw against Sp**s as well as the buildup game which we saw against Norwich. We played that formation only once after that at Brighton. This would also mean that there would be more scenarios where Ødegaard can stay higher up the pitch as you mention.

Individually, I don`t think there is anything wrong with the Partey/Sambi/Ødegaard midfield. Ødegaard has had like 2 bad games this season against Brighton/Crystal Palace. After that he was dropped(correctly) which had more to do with the fact that Laca seemed to be in good form rather than Ødegaard`s poor form IMO. None of our other midfielders or forwards have been consistently good anyways (Including Partey who is supposed to have been a world class signing). The criticism which a 22 year old Ødegaard gets after 2 bad games is silly IMO.

I think we need to define Odegaards role though. I think it is pretty obvious what he is, but I don't think we have the players to really give him the space he needs to flourish unless Artetw is willing to tweak the system.

For example, Ødegaard loves the right half space. That's where he sees the pitch the best. So if we don't push our right back on and we are adamant that we play an inverted winger on the right. It means Ødegaard rarely has an option of an incisive ball to his right.

I like Tomi, but something tells me we would be better served with a rb who is very good going forward that would allow us to invert our left back and give teams something different to think about. By having a rb who doesn't push on, it really limits what you can do.

Tierney is adept as a lcb and Tavares is comfortable on his right foot. I think there is a balance issue.

 

[Barry]

I think we need to define Odegaards role though. I think it is pretty obvious what he is, but I don't think we have the players to really give him the space he needs to flourish unless Artetw is willing to tweak the system.

For example, Ødegaard loves the right half space. That's where he sees the pitch the best. So if we don't push our right back on and we are adamant that we play an inverted winger on the right. It means Ødegaard rarely has an option of an incisive ball to his right.

I like Tomi, but something tells me we would be better served with a rb who is very good going forward that would allow us to invert our left back and give teams something different to think about. By having a rb who doesn't push on, it really limits what you can do.

Tierney is adept as a lcb and Tavares is comfortable on his right foot. I think there is a balance issue.

Think this is spot on. Tomiyasu will I think be an excellent signing overall because (apart from the last game) he's an excellent, pacy defender. But he doesn't offer much at all going forward down the right and that lack of balance has affected all of our right side attacking play. If we had a more offensive number 8/6
on the right side then it may compensate somewhat but so far Ødegaard hasn't been that guy.

 

[blrgooner]

I think we need to define Odegaards role though. I think it is pretty obvious what he is, but I don't think we have the players to really give him the space he needs to flourish unless Artetw is willing to tweak the system.

For example, Ødegaard loves the right half space. That's where he sees the pitch the best. So if we don't push our right back on and we are adamant that we play an inverted winger on the right. It means Ødegaard rarely has an option of an incisive ball to his right.

I like Tomi, but something tells me we would be better served with a rb who is very good going forward that would allow us to invert our left back and give teams something different to think about. By having a rb who doesn't push on, it really limits what you can do.

Tierney is adept as a lcb and Tavares is comfortable on his right foot. I think there is a balance issue.

Yes. I think that would mean that Saka can come more towards the center too which would improve his game. If he is going to be as wide as he has been, I actually prefer Saka to the left. Saka coming from the right is only good if he can find himself in and around the box more often which is not happening now. Even though Tomi is not the best going forward, I think he should press forward more often than he is doing now( Which requires tweaking of the inverted fullback system to some extent).

 

[avenellroad]

Some good discussion in here.

This is our biggest problem more than anything else. We don’t control games even against the cannon fodder, with our best game coming against Villa when the midfield were playing two touch. Usually we are slow, taking ages to progress the ball and not being able to assert any measure of dominance with everyone in midfield trying to dribble their way out of trouble. Patino would be brilliant for this in the long term, but he will still need a fair amount of development in the men’s game to reach that stage.

Not sure Renato Sanches is the type of midfielder who will offer this either. We need to get back to playing two touch in midfield, playing round corners which pulls players out of position. Someone like Verrati is needed.

 

[Tourbillion]

Some good discussion in here.

This is our biggest problem more than anything else. We don’t control games even against the cannon fodder, with our best game coming against Villa when the midfield were playing two touch. Usually we are slow, taking ages to progress the ball and not being able to assert any measure of dominance with everyone in midfield trying to dribble their way out of trouble. Patino would be brilliant for this in the long term, but he will still need a fair amount of development in the men’s game to reach that stage.

Not sure Renato Sanches is the type of midfielder who will offer this either. We need to get back to playing two touch in midfield, playing round corners which pulls players out of position. Someone like Verrati is needed.

The pass around the corner is not only an aesthetic wet dream for me, it's also been completely lacking in our side since prime Santi/Jack.

You're absolutely spot on. We also need more two footedness in there, although Sambi may have that knack?

 

[Penn_]

Half the problem is our midfield, and perhaps squad in general, are all of position up or two on where they’d be in high performing teams.

Xhaka has been a starter for years, would be squaddie elsewhere

Sambi is way too close to the first team, already has 8 league starts, seems ridiculously high for a new player.

Partey. Quality but we use him in a fairly action or more attacking role. The worlds elite literally has similar quality players in strict defensive roles.

Fans might like our players but their collective ability is below par.

 

[El Duderino]

As others have put it, this club has nose dived after Cazorla got injured and went away.

We tried with Xhaka, but is pretty clear he is not a player for the PL. Too one footed, turns like a tanker, etc.

Partey comes close to what we need in a player who can actually beat a press and further play, but we do need another player closer to his level.

 

[Trilly]

Yes. I think that would mean that Saka can come more towards the center too which would improve his game. If he is going to be as wide as he has been, I actually prefer Saka to the left. Saka coming from the right is only good if he can find himself in and around the box more often which is not happening now. Even though Tomi is not the best going forward, I think he should press forward more often than he is doing now( Which requires tweaking of the inverted fullback system to some extent).

This is the exact same thing that happened with Pepe, Arteta’s system is a graveyard for RW.

When Pep plays an inverted RB there are two differences: he replaces the width by using his RCM, secondly he still allows Kyle Walker to overlap on occasion. When we do it, Tomi overlaps maybe once a game and we don’t really have anyone else making those RCM wide runs which results in our RW being isolated.

Arteta gets the defensive advantages of the tactics but takes no steps to rectify the negative impact it has on our attack. Kind of sums up the type of manager he is.

 

[Rimaal]

All the posts in this thread so far boil down to this: "Arteta can't set up a cohesive balanced team".

End of story.

 

[MikelHadADream]

Think this is spot on. Tomiyasu will I think be an excellent signing overall because (apart from the last game) he's an excellent, pacy defender. But he doesn't offer much at all going forward down the right and that lack of balance has affected all of our right side attacking play. If we had a more offensive number 8/6
on the right side then it may compensate somewhat but so far Ødegaard hasn't been that guy.

Spot on. We basically have only ever 4/5 players that offer anything in the final third. Maybe is some games that's fine, but I don't think its the right balance for the games where we have to take the initiative.

With Tomiyasu at RB, there's no need for 2 DMs in the team. Unfortunately Arteta has tried 433, but it hasn't worked. Not really surprising either, Ødegaard and ESR have no clue how to play the number 8 positions. It's really hard to see what Arteta wants from the team offensively.

 

[AbouCuéllar]

The problem is three fold:

1) Arteta: he simply hasn't been able to coax a good midfield passing game out of us in his whole time here. If there's one characteristic of his coaching so far it's that, we just don't have a coherent way of working it through the middle; players aren't calm enough on the ball to pick options through the middle, Arteta clearly teaches them a risk-averse way of "resisting" the pess.

2) More sophisticated opposition pressing: Not going to get into an argument with the 'league hasn't improved / pressing hasn't improved on a global level in the league' negationists here, but there is no question that the problems Wenger was facing from oppositions in terms of pressing and complicating the construction of attacks from the middle are radically different on average than the ones Arteta is facing. Sophistication of pressing and level of pressing / instruction to press higher has gone up and changed drastically throughout football over the last 10 years, and even Wenger was starting to suffer from this more and more later in his career, hence why he fooled around with 3 at the back formations, hence why there were times where our midfield was wholly dysfunctional under him at times (recalls 15-16 when Cazorla was hurt and Ramsey and Flamini / Coquelin was the midfield partnership and we could not work it through the middle whatsoever)...his last season we ranked 5th in possession, pretty unheard of for a Wenger side in England.

3) Personnel: I've seen Lokonga get hyped up a bit in his thread but he's simply not ready to be an option resisting the press at this point in his development, and Thomas is a DM who is not a natural option to build attacks either, making Lokonga and Thomas a pretty low-end pivot for construction of attacks and building up from the back. We miss Xhaka here whether people like to admit it or not. Though obviously personnel and coaching are interrelated phenomenon and it is undeniable that we are not getting the best out of the personnel in this aspect.

 

[Rasmi]

Our passing game dont look good against poor teams. Its 90% coaching problem. We dont have the team to take on City, but the players are nowhere near as bad as what we see week in week out on the pitch. You can buy all the players you want for a poor manager and coaching team. They will always get less of the players they have than their actual level