Player Ratings - PL: Chelsea vs Arsenal | 30/11/08

[sabret00the]

Re: Chelsea vs Arsenal Match Ratings

Denilson at the height of his game?

Do you have a match in mind that you think might demonstrate that?

I only ask, because I reckon I could count the number of Denilson's performances this season that have been better than average on one hand. So I was wondering what sort of standard you think he's demonstrated so far this year.

I hear where you're coming from and you wouldn't be wrong in that. His best performances came prior to the return of Fabregas to the team. Much of the opposition was sub standard but you can see he played a different game to what he's playing now.

 

[ricky1985]

Re: Chelsea vs Arsenal Match Ratings

I dont understand this Darren Fletcher love in all of a sudden. He is the epitome of average.

He isnt even a regular in Man United's team, and is way down the pecking order if everyone is fit.

His pasinng is limited, his defensive abilities are very limited. A couple of goals, here and there this season and suddenly he is a good player.

Darren Fletcher is ok, and even though my enthusiasm for Denilson has waned a bit recently, I think he has a lot more to his game than Fletcher. Lets not forget Denilson's confidence is shot to pieces at the moment.

Honestly if Fletcher played for our team regularly he would get crucified for his complete lack of any real ability.

 

[G0D]

Re: Chelsea vs Arsenal Match Ratings

adebayor - 4 (wasn't ready to start the game. constantly gave away the ball and got bullied by chelseas centre-backs)

How can you give him a 4 when he was an integral part in our winning goal? :|

 

[Lukazan]

Re: Chelsea vs Arsenal Match Ratings

I dont understand this Darren Fletcher love in all of a sudden. He is the epitome of average.

The epitome of average is Denilson.

He isnt even a regular in Man United's team, and is way down the pecking order if everyone is fit.

Which is exactly what Denilson should have been in our team.

His pasinng is limited, his defensive abilities are very limited.

Nope, Fletcher's passing is actually very good, particularly his long range passing which is often as good as anyone's. You're also wrong about the defensive side of his game too, which is very disciplined, hence why Ferguson often picks him for the big games. It's Denilson's passing that is average, and it is Denilson that has next to zero defensive ability.

I think he has a lot more to his game than Fletcher. Lets not forget Denilson's confidence is shot to pieces at the moment.

Sick of hearing this about Denilson. "He's got alot more than Flamini", "He's got a lot more than Fletcher", "He's got alot more than the T-1000" it's all bullshit. He has nothing. He's just so stock and should be nowhere near our midfield and probably not even in the future either.

Honestly if Fletcher played for our team regularly he would get crucified for his complete lack of any real ability.

Probably, except you'd be getting excited and telling us all he's the next Vieira.

 

[dutchMasta]

Re: Chelsea vs Arsenal Match Ratings

Yeah, Ade got an assist and played a part in the 1st goal. "constantly gave away the ball and got bullied" sounds like someone else to me.

 

[ricky1985]

Re: Chelsea vs Arsenal Match Ratings

I dont understand this Darren Fletcher love in all of a sudden. He is the epitome of average.

The epitome of average is Denilson.

He isnt even a regular in Man United's team, and is way down the pecking order if everyone is fit.

Which is exactly what Denilson should have been in our team.

His pasinng is limited, his defensive abilities are very limited.

Nope, Fletcher's passing is actually very good, particularly his long range passing which is often as good as anyone's. You're also wrong about the defensive side of his game too, which is very disciplined, hence why Ferguson often picks him for the big games. It's Denilson's passing that is average, and it is Denilson that has next to zero defensive ability.

I think he has a lot more to his game than Fletcher. Lets not forget Denilson's confidence is shot to pieces at the moment.

Sick of hearing this about Denilson. "He's got alot more than Flamini", "He's got a lot more than Fletcher", "He's got alot more than the T-1000" it's all bullshit. He has nothing. He's just so stock and should be nowhere near our midfield and probably not even in the future either.

Honestly if Fletcher played for our team regularly he would get crucified for his complete lack of any real ability.

Probably, except you'd be getting excited and telling us all he's the next Vieira.

Woah, Luk, you have really got the knives out for me, havent you.

I agree Denilson is average at the moment. He is a liability in the team, and offers nothing more than work rate. And yes I did want to jump through the TV screen yesterday and smack him one. He was really, really bad.

I just think Fletcher is much the same, but playing a in a more consistent team, and set-up. He does his average little job, every 5 games or so, and thats it. He is not even good enough to warrant a discussion on an Arsenal forum.

Can we cut the *****iness and sarcasm, as far as I can remember I'm always pretty civil towards you. I've got nothing against you mate, just have a different outlook most of the time.

 

[USArsenal]

Re: Chelsea vs Arsenal Match Ratings

hmm, seems that Luka simply broke down your post(s) and responded to them with his thoughts.. dont really see much *****iness in there...

sarcasm, well, you'll have to deal with that... heh

 

[ricky1985]

Re: Chelsea vs Arsenal Match Ratings

And I answered the post. I was referrng to the ending.

 

[Mbaki Mutahaba]

Re: Chelsea vs Arsenal Match Ratings

We are not Chelsea of late. Nearly every player who comes in at such a young age will not be CUT for the EPL the first year. We are moaning about Flamini flamini...but how long did it take to appreciate him and for him to assert himself? The same goes for nearly every 17-21 year old who has come in. They just cant be CUT at their very first season. We will not be seeing Fabrega(an exception i should stated but) if Wenger didnt start him early..and he was started early and he did have games when he was "lightweight".

All in all Song, Denilson, Nasri..all these are kids who still need time to adjust and establish themselves. There is no better way sometimes then to trhow them in. But they deserve to be given time just like everyone else. We are not in the business of getting finishd articles chelski.

This is Denilson and Song first real season. They are not a finished article but they have done well enough. Denilson had a descent game..he worked hard in a position that is not best for him or anyone else who was playing.

Song had to contend with 3 mifielders..or shall i say 4. It was a tough one because of our 4-4-2 approach.

 

[tam1886]

Re: Chelsea vs Arsenal Match Ratings

Completely agree with everything Luka has said. He's got it bang on in fact. I don't know how often you've seen him Ricky, but in my opinion it's obviously not enough to have formed the opinion you have of him.

 

[ricky1985]

Re: Chelsea vs Arsenal Match Ratings

Well I bow to your greater knowledge. He has looked average whenever I have seen him. Maybe I have it wrong, as I dont watch him every week. I am happy to concede he may be better than I give him credit for. Lets just say I wouldnt have him at Arsenal.

 

[dutchMasta]

Re: Chelsea vs Arsenal Match Ratings

We are not Chelsea of late. Nearly every player who comes in at such a young age will not be CUT for the EPL the first year. We are moaning about Flamini flamini...but how long did it take to appreciate him and for him to assert himself? The same goes for nearly every 17-21 year old who has come in. They just cant be CUT at their very first season. We will not be seeing Fabrega(an exception i should stated but) if Wenger didnt start him early..and he was started early and he did have games when he was "lightweight".

No, but Flamini wasn't given the responsibility Denilson had until his latest season (which was pretty much his first REAL season), which by then, he'd already had plenty of experience and we still had 2 other great options if he couldn't step up/got injured. And anyway, this isn't Denilson/Song's first season, even if it's their first real one, they've had plenty of games/experience to show improvement, but yeah, they are still young. Quality will always shine through, even if Cesc started playing later, I have no doubt he'd be in the same position he is now.

All in all Song, Denilson, Nasri..all these are kids who still need time to adjust and establish themselves. There is no better way sometimes then to trhow them in. But they deserve to be given time just like everyone else. We are not in the business of getting finishd articles chelski.

We should only throw them in if we can afford to though. And only really one at a time. You want to throw them into an environment which will be good for them too. We don't have real backup options for them either, just more young players to throw in the deep end.

 

[Mbaki Mutahaba]

Re: Chelsea vs Arsenal Match Ratings

We should only throw them in if we can afford to though. And only really one at a time. You want to throw them into an environment which will be good for them too. We don't have real backup options for them either, just more young players to throw in the deep end.

The fact that the backup options are younger goes hand in hand with the policy of building a young team. Basically what we see is just part or the youth policy implementation which started when Cesc was ushered in and the kanus were let go. This are the same kids who played Chelsea in the CC 2 years back (midfield). They have now beaten Manure and Chelski in league games. How does anyone not see that there is forward movement and quite a lot? But no one will argue they are finished articles.

 

[dutchMasta]

Re: Chelsea vs Arsenal Match Ratings

The fact that the backup options are younger goes hand in hand with the policy of building a young team. Basically what we see is just part or the youth policy implementation which started when Cesc was ushered in and the kanus were let go. This are the same kids who played Chelsea in the CC 2 years back (midfield). They have now beaten Manure and Chelski in league games. How does anyone not see that there is forward movement and quite a lot? But no one will argue they are finished articles.

But it isn't really being implemented is it? Instead, when we have injuries, we just end up playing our other more established players out of position and disregarding said backup youth, which hasn't been good for Denilson at least. The CC policy hasn't changed, a mix of youth and first team squad members.

You can't really just use the fact that we beat Man U and Chelsea as reasons that we're moving forward. There are quite a few counter-examples in Hull/Stoke/Man City/Villa/Fulham/Sunderland/etc. Anyway, in the past, we've generally been unlucky, this time round, against both Man U and Chelsea, we've had that bit of luck, but at least I'm happy that performance-wise, we were able to step it up and match them. We've still got a lot of ground to cover, how we do it will give us a better answer to whether we have moved forward as a team or not and I hope to hell you're right.

 

[tactica442]

Re: Chelsea vs Arsenal Match Ratings

Almuni - 6 - Did ok. He should not get all the blame of the conceded goal. Nasri reacted qute slowly when Almunia tried to launch a quick counter. Nasri didn't track back Boswingwa either.
Sagna - 7 - Solid
Djourou - 7 - His performance in the second half was massive. Dominated in the air baiscally.
Gallas - 7
Clichy - 6 - His performance before Robin's equaliser only merited a 5. Looked very hesitant with pressing and challenges. Perhaps Boswinga's close control is too good to be treated lightly. Nasri didn't help clichyin in defense much.
Denilson - 7 - Looked much more aggressive than before. Physically his chellanges were a bit off the level of Balacks or Mikels, but still he did well.
Cesc - 7 - Tried to help Song too much. Should've been going forward to exploit space more often.
Song - 6 - Deserves the praise for his defending and, more importantly, when and how foul. Save Clichy's arse one or two times. However, Song was often off his supposed position and got caught when Chelsea's midfielder quickly move the ball behind him. This is evident when the team tried to attack. The defending shape of the team's midfield was not tactically sound. It's OK to try to attack Chelsea, but that team shape is hardly a solid shape. In the beginning of second half, Song's disadvantge of lack of pace was further exposed when the team tried to attack but got caught when Chelsea did quick counter. Song was virtual chasing from behind all the time. However, when the scoreline turned 2-1 and Chelsea were forced to push up, Song's physical advantage became evident, because he can SIT BACK and wait Chlesea to attack. His problem of lacking pace was lessened in that situation.
Nasri - 4 - Poor.
Robin - 10 - MoTM. Apart from that, nothing else to say.
Ade - 6 - Was quiet. Looked like he found his own match in the opposition - Boswingwa. Didn't get too much advantages from Bosingwa and Ivanovic.

Wenger - 7 - A successful gamble by asking the players to attack. Should've subbed Nasri at least 10 mins earlier. Maybe the manager was concerned about disrupted concentration if he made early substitution. That worry is probably only unique to Arsenal and true. :roll:

 

[dutchMasta]

Re: Chelsea vs Arsenal Match Ratings

Sagna the same rating as Denilson? Are you rating by the same standards?

 

[Mbaki Mutahaba]

Re: Chelsea vs Arsenal Match Ratings

You can't really just use the fact that we beat Man U and Chelsea as reasons that we're moving forward. There are quite a few counter-examples in Hull/Stoke/Man City/Villa/Fulham/Sunderland/etc. Anyway, in the past, we've generally been unlucky, this time round, against both Man U and Chelsea, we've had that bit of luck, but at least I'm happy that performance-wise, we were able to step it up and match them. We've still got a lot of ground to cover, how we do it will give us a better answer to whether we have moved forward as a team or not and I hope to hell you're right.

Give credit when due. Beating Manure and Chelski is not really a question of luck. With Manure especially we did play well enough to win it. I stated we have moved forward but there is still work to be done (thus the inconsistency). The challenges in how we cope with low confidence is there for all of us to see. Kids get shaken much more than the big boys. I believe a good team can not suddenly be bad. And this current team has played enough games to show they are good. Not the best not a finished article but good enough to compete and with a bit of luck here and there even get us silverware. Like you said, time will tell. However you just cant judge based on silverware. I think last year's team was good enough to have won the EPL and even the CL. Sh* happend but we were good enough. We have taken a step backwards with the hlebs leaving..but not too far back.

 

[kel varnsen]

Re: Chelsea vs Arsenal Match Ratings

Denilson is undoubtedly blessed with more natural talent than Fletcher, but right now Fletcher is a far better player.

how so? because he plays for arsenal?

you never mention how or why denilson is "undoubtedly" more talented than fletcher. what is it about denilson that makes you certain he's far more gifted? imo, denilson is exceptionally average in every way. no real strengths. weak, slow, poor passing range and pace, can't tackle and doesn't score goals.

fletcher has turned into a decent midfielder with a solid all round game, combined with strong and well timed runs. far better than denilson atm.

 

[kamikaze80]

Re: Chelsea vs Arsenal Match Ratings

fletcher was crap a few years ago but as tam, luka and asa have said, he's improved greatly since then. he's obviously not roy keane but he's a nice little midfield terrier, is disciplined, keeps things tidy and is an efficient ball distributor. but carrick is still their best CM at the moment.

i dont think denilson will be crap for the rest of eternity - fletcher being the perfect example of how a **** young player can develop into a solid squad member with a bit of experience and discipline. but there's no guarantee denilson will learn those lessons and it's absurd to throw away an entire season for his sake, as we have already done this league campaign.

fergie bought carrick and hargreaves to block fletcher's path and fletcher decided to improve rather than sulk and leave somewhere else. that's the sort of reaction we should expect from our youth instead of coddling them and being afraid of "blocking" them with better players (god forbid we improve our squad!).

 

[Jameel46]

Re: Chelsea vs Arsenal Match Ratings

Almunia 6 (nothing wrong with the ball out, the chelsea player was just quicker to react to it)
Sagna 7
Djourou 6
Gallas 7
Clichy 8
Denilson 5
Song 7
Fabregas 8
Nasri 6
Ade 7 (started off both goals by winning the headers)
RVP 8

Bendtner 7


p.s. would much rather have Denilson than Fletcher, he is quicker, a better passer (usually), has more of a creative brain, has more flair, he just isn't getting a game in his position (where cesc plays).