The Battle of LCM.

[boonthegoon]

I don't agree with zinchenko at left 8.
He's more of a controller. He is not going to give you goals and assists which is what we want from there. Xhaka did that. Vieira is somewhat doing it. Esr generally has good product from what we have seen from him

Havertz hasn't provided that for us so far but that's we expect him to do.

Zinchenko never really gives that.

 

[Trilly]

Bro, we're having to watch Kai Havertz stink it up at LCM, having Rice there will feel like having Zidane in comparison

As bad as Havertz has been, Rice is just not an attacking player.

I’ll go as far as saying I’d rather play Partey ahead of Rice tbh.

 

[2Smokeyy]

As bad as Havertz has been, Rice is just not an attacking player.

I’ll go as far as saying I’d rather play Partey ahead of Rice tbh.

It’s like we have to resort to the best of a bad bunch in that position smh



Don’t think I can stomach those shots into row z again. Dark times!

 

[Trilly]

It’s like we have to resort to the best of a bad bunch in that position smh



Don’t think I can stomach those shots into row z again. Dark times!

Brother

Easy to upgrade on Xhaka they said.

 

[Dokaka]

Difficult as we don't see them in training etc, but on a surface level I think it should rotate between Kai and ESR depending on the opposition. I'm not convinced by Vieira in that role, think he lacks the defensive contribution Kai brings and isn't impactful enough offensively to justify it.

ESR to me is on paper very well suited to what Arteta seems to want from the role. Probably needs to up his defensive game a bit but that's why I think rotating between Kai and him would be the best option. ESR for when you're expected to dominate, Kai when you know there's a physical battle ahead.

With Timber back in the side I could actually see the argument for Zinchenko playing in that left 8 role. I think he at least gives you the most balanced approach.

 

[Macho]

Easy to upgrade on Xhaka they said.

Lol Arsenal-Mania is funny you know.

 

[Dokaka]

Brother

Easy to upgrade on Xhaka they said.

I still don't think it was difficult - if Partey was fit and Arteta stuck to the system from last year, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. A Partey/Rice/Ødegaard midfield bullied City in the Community Shield. A glorified friendly of course, but we all know Pep and Arteta want to win against each other.

The problem is Partey got injured again and Xhaka was replaced by a complete hail mary that so far hasn't worked out on top of an overhaul in your tactical approach offensively.

For the money spent on Kai, I could point you to at least 10 players that were/are available for the same amount of money or less that would be clear upgrades on Xhaka, but Edu and Arteta decided to go for a quite random high risk gamble to fill a very important gap in the squad.

 

[Ash10]

Brother

Easy to upgrade on Xhaka they said.

It was, just that we totally screwed it up by buying a false nine for that role

 

[Trilly]

I still don't think it was difficult - if Partey was fit and Arteta stuck to the system from last year, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. A Partey/Rice/Ødegaard midfield bullied City in the Community Shield. A glorified friendly of course, but we all know Pep and Arteta want to win against each other.

The problem is Partey got injured again and Xhaka was replaced by a complete hail mary that so far hasn't worked out on top of an overhaul in your tactical approach offensively.

For the money spent on Kai, I could point you to at least 10 players that were/are available for the same amount of money or less that would be clear upgrades on Xhaka, but Edu and Arteta decided to go for a quite random high risk gamble to fill a very important gap in the squad.

The Partey-Rice-Ode midfield is immense defensively but your boy Declan just can’t be the ~14GA player that Xhaka was last season, not yet anyway.

You raise a fair point re: easy to upgrade Xhaka and I was expecting someone to make the argument you made…but at the end of the day if it was that easy they’d have done it.

You all seem to rate Arteta/Edu pretty highly right, especially in the transfer window. Why did they go for Havertz if other easy upgrades were there?

 

[AberGooner]

Not a fan of Rice playing the more advanced position but would that be a thing even if Partey was fit? Partey was playing right back prior to the injury after all.

 

[Macho]

You all seem to rate Arteta/Edu pretty highly right, especially in the transfer window. Why did they go for Havertz if other easy upgrades were there?

There’s like 3 guys currently at the club and even more have been tried there if you include Trossard and Lokonga.

I’m not going to pretend Xhaka was this irreplaceable player, but there is some downplaying going on here.

Xhaka is one of the most balanced midfielders when it comes to attack and defence, not to mention he had years under Arteta so he actually knew what he was doing.

Kai was sent from forces we don’t understand to teach Arsenal fans a thorough lesson.

 

[Trilly]

Tbf @Dokaka i could probably list a few players who could play the Xhaka role on paper as well.

Thing is 14 g/a from midfield in the prem while doing your defensive work is no joke. I think we could sign guys better than Havertz but they’d struggle to match those numbers imo.

 

[Trilly]

Klop went with Dominik, which seemed more exciting, a better fit for him.
Ten hag betted on Mount.
Guardiola is Stacked with players there.
Chelsea is a coocoo nest.
We went on a player out of his depth with a good name but no clear identity, overpriced, from a rival in dire need for cash. All of this while Maddison provided brilliant numbers for years even when getting relegated, ready to deliver from day 0. It was the obvious choice and yet Arteta tried to outsmart reality as he does so many times and only players whos their talent is so colossal like Saliba can survive this damage and blossom.
It wasn't hard to see. It was cheaper. x2 to x4 times more efficient and would have prevented Tottenham revival. But we had to do a Havertz.
I have nothing against him and I pray he will make it but i have to ask you why make things so hard in the first place, why try so hard to swim against the current and make things so dramatic when they are really out there. Arteta's biggest enemy is Arteta. There are moments I tell myself that I know he isnt the best manager in the world but he is the right man at the right time for us BUT he really makes it hard for me to believe in it with his stuborness on things that dont and wont work because it is just wrong. It annoys me to bits to see it game after game that he refuses to learn. He seems so beautifully passionate (which i really admire, I do!) that he loses connection with reality and then refuses to wake up.
Maddison is one of those very obvious and huge mistakes. There is no way around it. Arteta is in love with a vision that he tries to force on reality with not enough awareness to change and create it on the fly. He doesn't adapt quickly enough even if its glaring and it is also evident in games with substitutions. That's my take and that is the reason I am always on the fence about Arteta.

Yeah we should have defo gone for Madderz. Even as a squad/rotation player.

A-M underrated him massively because they viewed him as an Ødegaard rival and we all know you can’t rate players who play in the same position as our favourites.

 

[Xln]

It's him.

I have a video in my bookmarks if you want I can share it.

Havertz is the best player in the league running without the ball' - Arsenal Mania​

 

[Buhry]

I have a video in my bookmarks if you want I can share it.

Havertz is the best player in the league running without the ball' - Arsenal Mania​

His off the ball jogging is elite. Bet he could outjog anyone on here.

 

[Dokaka]

You raise a fair point re: easy to upgrade Xhaka and I was expecting someone to make the argument you made…but at the end of the day if it was that easy they’d have done it.

You all seem to rate Arteta/Edu pretty highly right, especially in the transfer window. Why did they go for Havertz if other easy upgrades were there?

Honestly? I think they made a mistake. It's close to a textbook example of being too clever about something. I get what they were going for as I'd watched Havertz in Germany, but something just seems to be off about him. Keep in mind it could still turn around with him, but at this point we're betting more on borderline blind faith than anything else.

By no means do I think either Arteta or Edu are infallible, and all the evidence so far points to this move being an extremely bad decision.

Tbf @Dokaka i could probably list a few players who could play the Xhaka role on paper as well.

Thing is 14 g/a from midfield in the prem while doing your defensive work is no joke. I think we could sign guys better than Havertz but they’d struggle to match those numbers imo.

Much of the surface level end product stuff comes with simply playing in that role. Hell, look at Havertz as an example here - how many times have you shaken your head because he fumbled something that should have resulted in a goal or an assist already? He's in those situation partly because of his ability off the ball, but just as much because the role inside the team is largely focused on attacking the spaces left behind the forwards dragging defenders away etc.

I'm not saying this to take away from Xhaka's contribution, just to be clear. He was undeniably good last season, but that doesn't change my opinion that there were/are plenty of players that fit that role better than he does. Hell, I'd even go so far and say we currently have two players that would at worst have been sidegrades, with one being a clear upgrade IMO.

No idea if you've seen us play this season but JWP is almost 1=1 playing that 8 role for us and he's currently sitting on 2 goals and 3 assists from open play, while doing arguably the most defensive work out of any of our midfielders. That's just an example of how goals and assists to an extent just comes with the territory of being in that type of role.

 

[Trilly]

Honestly? I think they made a mistake. It's close to a textbook example of being too clever about something. I get what they were going for as I'd watched Havertz in Germany, but something just seems to be off about him. Keep in mind it could still turn around with him, but at this point we're betting more on borderline blind faith than anything else.

By no means do I think either Arteta or Edu are infallible, and all the evidence so far points to this move being an extremely bad decision.



Much of the surface level end product stuff comes with simply playing in that role. Hell, look at Havertz as an example here - how many times have you shaken your head because he fumbled something that should have resulted in a goal or an assist already? He's in those situation partly because of his ability off the ball, but just as much because the role inside the team is largely focused on attacking the spaces left behind the forwards dragging defenders away etc.

I'm not saying this to take away from Xhaka's contribution, just to be clear. He was undeniably good last season, but that doesn't change my opinion that there were/are plenty of players that fit that role better than he does. Hell, I'd even go so far and say we currently have two players that would at worst have been sidegrades, with one being a clear upgrade IMO.

No idea if you've seen us play this season but JWP is almost 1=1 playing that 8 role for us and he's currently sitting on 2 goals and 3 assists from open play, while doing arguably the most defensive work out of any of our midfielders. That's just an example of how goals and assists to an extent just comes with the territory of being in that type of role.

Spot on tbh. It’s close to being a free role when we have the ball and I guess on paper having a guy who is pretty much inbetween a mid and striker made a lot of sense.

I genuinely wonder what Arteta thinks when he sees him just ambling around passing on all responsibility on the pitch. 65M and Mikel doesn’t even seem particularly invested in making him a success.

the whole situation is bizarre, he plays like he needs a sports psychologist.

 

[Entropics]

I'll go Kai, Arteta will persist until it works.

He might strike gold like he did with Xhaka, when the league became so poor his quality could finally shine. The league certainly doesn't look like it's improving.

 

[Dokaka]

Spot on tbh. It’s close to being a free role when we have the ball and I guess on paper having a guy who is pretty much inbetween a mid and striker made a lot of sense.

I genuinely wonder what Arteta thinks when he sees him just ambling around passing on all responsibility on the pitch. 65M and Mikel doesn’t even seem particularly invested in making him a success.

the whole situation is bizarre, he plays like he needs a sports psychologist.

Considering how basically every manager that has managed Havertz seems to pick him more often than not to start, the guy must be very impressive in training. So yeah, it's probably a mental thing for him.

The positive here I guess is that if he manages to sort that out, he's obviously going to be quite an impactful player. One of the main reasons why people are so frustrated with him is how he finds himself in good positions often but fumbles the bag. If he stopped fumbling the bag, those good positions suddenly turn into end product and you got a 6"4 talented B2B midfielder contracted through his prime years.

It's such a massive "if" though that selling your starter in that position to replace him with a question mark with no backup option is just.. I mean, it's dumb. There's no way around it. It was a stupid decision. You could justify the gamble more easily if Xhaka was still here, but you basically sold the safety net and put 1/3 of your transfer budget on a dice roll.

 

[BergMan]

I still don't think it was difficult - if Partey was fit and Arteta stuck to the system from last year, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. A Partey/Rice/Ødegaard midfield bullied City in the Community Shield. A glorified friendly of course, but we all know Pep and Arteta want to win against each other.

The problem is Partey got injured again and Xhaka was replaced by a complete hail mary that so far hasn't worked out on top of an overhaul in your tactical approach offensively.

For the money spent on Kai, I could point you to at least 10 players that were/are available for the same amount of money or less that would be clear upgrades on Xhaka, but Edu and Arteta decided to go for a quite random high risk gamble to fill a very important gap in the squad.

That community shield win was then followed up by three games in which Partey played right back.
Arteta sees Rice and Partey as a similar profile, his first choice was not to play them together in midfield. I’m convinced that Arteta preferred to sell Partey in the summer and replace him with a midfield/right back hybrid.

When Rice and Partey played in that community shield game it was a double pivot. Rice wasn’t an 8. Arteta doesn’t want to play a double pivot in most games.