The Midfield Enigma

[hydrofluoric acid]

I agree to a large extent but it serves to further cement my argument that if Xhaka - one of the best passers in the Bundesliga - has struggled as well as Cazorla to stabilize our midfield play on the ball then Kante would have fared far worse, and people would still be complaining about how unbalanced Arsenal is.

It is a systematic problem, not an individual one - which people seem to be trying their best to whittle it down to because it gives them a scapegoat. Xhaka is becoming one of those players sadly, and people are experience Grass Is Greener Syndrome in the case of Kante, a player who I certainly rate but was not the only immediate need in the case of our midfield and possession play.

I agree it is a systematic problem. I do rate Xhaka highly my self and I've been the one who say we will see a lot better Xhaka next season than this season. At least I hope so.

I'm wondering now how the discussion got to Xhaka vs Kanté. Like you said in your initial post on the matter, we should have taken both players. Given Kanté comments he would have least consider us if we pursued him more strongly.

Like we have seen this season Wenger has tried to change Coquelin playstyle to certain extent, more in direction to likes of Kanté and the result is that Coquelin form has been terrible since late last year until now. That move hasn't payed off for Wenger or Arsenal so it is natural for us who are fan of Kanté, when we read comments like this it leaves a sour taste in our mouth.

 

[hydrofluoric acid]

Kante's just a poor man's 07/08 Flamini imo, anyway.

I take 07/08 Flamini over El Nenny and Coquelin every day.

 

[blaise]

Btw I read Tiago has slightly more or same interceptions per a game and broken attacks than Kante .

Our problem is that our midfielder next to Xhaka is not mobile enough except Elnenny but he has his flaws for first 11. Xhaka doesnt have the burst of Santi and first step to open space so he is dependent on other players. More mobile midfielder offers him safe option to pass so he doesnt always have to take long pass.

So basically we need two new midfielders unless we can count on AMN, and we d have Coq as a fifth for defensive games and Santi as a sixth luxury signing. If we would sell Wilshere and Ramsey we would have nice budget for the summer and could solve midfield and other stuff.

 

[samshere]

I think the talk about Arsenal wanting Kante is all hot air. Maybe made by Kante himself to prove that there were a lot of suitors for him. We got Xhaka fairly early in the season and there was no way we were going to bring in two starting midfielders in the same window. Thats just not how Wenger operates. Kante in place of Xhaka would also not have worked, Imagine Kante-Coquelin, or Kante-El Neny, we'd just have been passing the ball between ourselves with no vertical movement.

 

[SingmeasongSong]

Its an opinion thing really. I don't think Kante is the best midfielder in the world or that he is flawless. Also, Kroos, Modric, Vidal, Iniesta, Busquets etc are also superb along with Verratti and Thiago. Kante imo is not as good as them now is he? They have more technical quality and influence over the game than Kante. But yes they are complete as a team with Kante or someone similar by the side or behind them doing the dirty work.

Yeah of course I was close to add on the always applicable "IMO" but that could be put after every argument really

Yes true, especially Kroos and Modric would work similar to Thiago/Veratti although !!IMO!! Thiago currently outperforms every other.
I just think Kante deserves at least to be named among the best 2-3 midfielders currently out there as he performs at wc level throughout almost 2 seasons now and as I see it, he does far more than just defensive work but has all in his locker.

A Thiago/Kante partnership would have all abilities required to work and the 2 standout performers at both defensive as creative work right now whilest both performing at all other duties at wc level as well.

 

[MutableEarth]

Btw I read Tiago has slightly more or same interceptions per a game and broken attacks than Kante .

Our problem is that our midfielder next to Xhaka is not mobile enough except Elnenny but he has his flaws for first 11. Xhaka doesnt have the burst of Santi and first step to open space so he is dependent on other players. More mobile midfielder offers him safe option to pass so he doesnt always have to take long pass.

So basically we need two new midfielders unless we can count on AMN, and we d have Coq as a fifth for defensive games and Santi as a sixth luxury signing. If we would sell Wilshere and Ramsey we would have nice budget for the summer and could solve midfield and other stuff.

- RE Thiago, when you consider that Bayern regularly have more possession than their opponents, his number of interceptions is pretty incredible.

- Xhaka's ideal complement is a midfielder who has the energy and willingness to receive the ball in various states of play. Ideally, this would actually be Ramsey but he has become unreliable. AMN, as you say, is the closest fit because he has the energy and athleticism as well as the composure and technique to receive the ball willingly - but he is 19 and while I personally think he is ready to start for us, there is no guarantee that he actually is unfortunately. We won't know until he plays and gets the opportunity.

It's not about building a team around Xhaka, it's about building a team around the strengths of your better players. We seem to be incapable of doing this the last couple of years.

 

[Impact]

@MutableEarth Some top posts in the past few pages. Though I'm not sure what has you so heavily convinced in Maitland-Niles.

In summary, our systemic issues exacerbate Xhaka's weaknesses and Chelsea's systemic strengths amplify Kanté's best qualities. Performances of both players this season is in part testament to how well or poorly their respective managers have done tactically.

 

[Aevi]

I'm a bit torn on this subject atm. It's clear we need a signing in midfield, and it's my personal opinion that this signing should be chosen to best complement Ramsey (provided he extends).

However, I'm not sure I want to give up on Xhaka-Ramsey as our starting midfield just yet. I think it's got some immense potential given the right system. What if a change of coach gets the best out of them? What if a better pair of defenders resolves our defensive issues? What if Xhaka especially pushes on to become the consistent, game-orchestrating player he's "meant" to be? If things start to come together, I feel this pairing has the potential to blow teams away. That might be a big if though.

 

[Cudareli]

In summary, our systemic issues exacerbate Xhaka's weaknesses and Chelsea's systemic strengths amplify Kanté's best qualities. Performances of both players this season is in part testament to how well or poorly their respective managers have done tactically.

Fantastic post.

While I think Xhaka has been sound this season, including when he was getting criticised by most, your comments on Kante are spot on. People point to how well he is playing, but so much of that is down to playing him in a formation and style that suits his best qualities. We tend not to do that at Arsenal, which is why I've always said that if we signed Kante tomorrow, within 6 months we'd be claiming he was past it and needed upgrading.

 

[The_Playmaker]

I'm a bit torn on this subject atm. It's clear we need a signing in midfield, and it's my personal opinion that this signing should be chosen to best complement Ramsey (provided he extends).

However, I'm not sure I want to give up on Xhaka-Ramsey as our starting midfield just yet. I think it's got some immense potential given the right system. What if a change of coach gets the best out of them? What if a better pair of defenders resolves our defensive issues? What if Xhaka especially pushes on to become the consistent, game-orchestrating player he's "meant" to be? If things start to come together, I feel this pairing has the potential to blow teams away. That might be a big if though.

They will never blow teams away on a consistent basis as they have too many flaws. Ramsey is slow and has barely.any recovery, he doesn't always time his runs correctly thus emptying the midfield. He can't drive forward with the ball. He takes too long in possession and has an iffy first touch on occasion. Xhaka can't dribble, is very iffy in one in one situations. He can lose concentration and gift possession away under pressure. He is also very slow and has zero recovery ability. They have positives but their negatives far outweigh them.

They both need the same player to compliment both of them at the same time or in a duo.

They need a fast, agile, strong, good tackling, good positionally stastistically high percentage passer alongside them. It isn't rocket science. There is a massive hole in our midfield that Wenger wants to fill with someone who has amazing passing and ball retention above anything. We know this doesn't work. We have Elneny. We don't need a Vieira, we need a Gilberto.

 

[HBL]

Kondogbia is our man!

 

[dashsnow17]

I'm a bit torn on this subject atm. It's clear we need a signing in midfield, and it's my personal opinion that this signing should be chosen to best complement Ramsey (provided he extends).

However, I'm not sure I want to give up on Xhaka-Ramsey as our starting midfield just yet. I think it's got some immense potential given the right system. What if a change of coach gets the best out of them? What if a better pair of defenders resolves our defensive issues? What if Xhaka especially pushes on to become the consistent, game-orchestrating player he's "meant" to be? If things start to come together, I feel this pairing has the potential to blow teams away. That might be a big if though.

I see what you're getting at, but I wonder if it's better to think of this in terms of a squad of players rather than just 11 players. Do managers think of recruitment in terms of who they want in their starting XI or what sort of qualities they'd like in their squad?

There are lots of games in a season, so buying a new midfielder who has qualities that you want in your squad doesn't necessarily mean you have to scrap Ramsey-Xhaka completely, it just means you have another option if it's not working.

 

[Oh-Zeal]

I see what you're getting at, but I wonder if it's better to think of this in terms of a squad of players rather than just 11 players. Do managers think of recruitment in terms of who they want in their starting XI or what sort of qualities they'd like in their squad?

There are lots of games in a season, so buying a new midfielder who has qualities that you want in your squad doesn't necessarily mean you have to scrap Ramsey-Xhaka completely, it just means you have another option if it's not working.

 

[Oh-Zeal]

Totally agree with this! It's not just about getting better players. The game is so tactical these days.. Pep created his own tactics.. why don't we do the same instead of writing off our own. The team is so lopsided.. Ramsey is so good at what he does.. So why don't we get someone who compliments him and Xhaka in midfield? Power, ball winner.. quick thinking.. transitional play with back to goal? Let's indentify these traits and invest in such a player. Kondogbia is a good shout. As well as someone like Fabinho. This way Ramsey can do his 3rd man running all day and still come back for that defensive shift. Pogbas situation is similar to Ramseys. Then obviously there's Özil and Mkhitharyan. To be honest in the CSKA game Özil proved How well he can float around with Henrik. We don't don't have wingers anyways.. So our full backs will add that width. Mustafi and a cool head at the back should do. In front of them Xhaka will make it tick with our important ideal all action midfielder. Ramsey Özil Mkhitharyan can do their things. Henrik is a smart player and creates space.. Ramsey attacks space.. Özil gets on it and create

 

[Brown Gooner]

Need a proper DM. Few years ago Matuidi would’ve been perfect. Right now William Carvalho is our best bet. If not him then Nzonzi (but he will be expensive).

 

[Oh-Zeal]

Need a proper DM. Few years ago Matuidi would’ve been perfect. Right now William Carvalho is our best bet. If not him then Nzonzi (but he will be expensive).

Matuidi really does put a shift. Him and Xhaka can work. However technically I still think we need players who can handle the pressing game and glide. Xhaka is bad at this and Matuidi.. not so Technical. Carvalho is very much Technical for his liking but he is as slow as Xhaka. Nzonzi all day!!! He can play it out of trouble against teams like Liverpool. If we were able to get a young Moussa Dembele though =(