Wenger has to step up

[dutchMasta]

Like Alfonso said, depends on the manner. If we come close, even not winning anything, showing that we can mix it up with the big boys despite our age, then he should stay. But if we have a disappointing season, even if we qualify for CL, but never really contended, nor came close to winning any cups, then he should go. But how he performs in the January window will also affect how I feel about him. If we do have a disappointing season, but he outlines strong plans to improve the squad next summer, like...immediately (not waiting til the end), then I'd like to see him stay. A ruthless Wenger, getting rid of crap, in with quality, will likely win me over.

But still a long way to go, he can still achieve something this season.

 

[giuliob]

It depends on how we end up in May...If this team shows some grit and commitment until the end of the season, then no, even if they don't win anything...Just give a good accounting....But right now I doubt that will happen....Regardless of what happens and how the team plays, I don't think Wenger is going anywhere....He is going to decide when he leaves...

I look at Wenger differently this season...I'm pretty disgusted with his tactical inflexibility and the way he gambled during the transfer season...He and his staff can't motivate these players on a week to week basis....I don't see that so much as the fault of the players youthfulness, but rather the coaching staff not doing their job...Hope he proves me wrong.

 

[Biggus]

So, would people be happy to see Wenger gone if we win nothing this year?

It's not as simple as that any more, what with what's happened over at Man City. That's why I wanted a ceasefire in the Arsenal Mania politics war so we could all get behind the team and reassess the situation at the end of the season depending on-

1. What experienced players were brought in, in January.

2. Whether we secure a top 4 finish or not.

3. Whether we win some silverware.

4. What experienced players are brought in next summer.

If any of 1-3 happen I would be glad for Wenger to continue. Even if we have a disastrous season, no trophies and a finish outside the top 4 I would still want him to continue provided he abandons this foolish nonsense of sending out youthful inexperienced teams and expecting them to win things.

If none of these 4 happen and we head into next season in a similar position to this one, I would refuse to accept this, and feel that he has taken us as far as he can and has no new idea's and it would be better if he left. Asa, you say "come what may" but wouldn't that be incredibility damaging for the club, us supporters and Wenger's reputation? Wouldn't it be better if he left so that we can really start the rebuilding process.

 

[Anzac]

Perhaps the recent comments from Fabregas may give some indication - if Cesc decides to leave next season then IMO it's pretty much all f*cked up!!!

 

[hackajack]

I mean if Wenger sacrfices the FA Cup again this year for whatever reason knowing that it is our best chance of silverware then the man is too arrogant to change and we will never win a trophy under him again whilst he puts his eggs in one basket and continues to fail.

The FA Cup is just not important any more, it rates about the same level as the Carling these days - which is why it was fought out by Postsmouth and Cardiff last year.

 

[asajoseph]

Asa, you say "come what may" but wouldn't that be incredibility damaging for the club, us supporters and Wenger's reputation? Wouldn't it be better if he left so that we can really start the rebuilding process.

Maybe - but as I said, if things got really bad, Arsène would jump long before the board took any kind of decisive action.

I don't expect that to happen though, to be perfectly honest - I think we'll have two more decent years under Wenger, and then if we're lucky, he'll pick us a half-decent successor.

 

[Anzac]

If this team falls apart next summer because of player frustrations, and particularly if Cesc left, then AW would perhaps offer his resignation to the Board. I don't think the Board would accept it - they'd let him see out his contract, but they'd have to give him some very clear requirements regarding not only the rebuilding of the team, but also in regard to the search for a successor.

 

[hesham]

This myth that we have no money needs to end really.
The board has come out countless times and said we have money to spend, AW has said that we have money to spend, we are in the top 5 richest clubs in the world.

AW has no excuses not to buy, he has choose to trust the players he has, time will tell if he has made the right decision, i'd say at least as good as last season is the minimum really anything less and AW would have failed this season, over the past 3 years we have made progress all be it slow. if we don't make some kind of progress this season we are going to start to go the other way.

AW has come out before and said that the jan market is for panic buys and if we do buy in jan it will be exactly that. Not that I am against it, going to have to wait and see what our position is come jan, if were out of the title race and we get in a midfielder and defender its going to be extremely frustrating to think we could have done that at the start but didnt because a few extra million.]

Whatever happens i would'nt want AW sacked. He's still a legend at the club, If he leave half the player would leave within a season or two which would be a disaster.

 

[Alfonso]

I mean if Wenger sacrfices the FA Cup again this year for whatever reason knowing that it is our best chance of silverware then the man is too arrogant to change and we will never win a trophy under him again whilst he puts his eggs in one basket and continues to fail.

The FA Cup is just not important any more, it rates about the same level as the Carling these days - which is why it was fought out by Postsmouth and Cardiff last year.

Take the FA Cup away from Wenger's achievements and all he has won is 3 league titles in 12 years at Arsenal. Take the club's FA Cup successes away from our history and it would seriously effect our trophy record.

Its still a trophy to be won. You cant go into a season just relying on winning the league and the CL, which are the two toughest trophies in club football. You got to be flexible, especially in our current climate of 4 years without silverware, and dont forget all it takes is a FA Cup win to springboard the players and the club into further success. Beggars cant be choosers, and we are beggars when it comes to trophies right now, so we can not be in a position of sacrificing trophies as Im afraid we havent earnt that right yet.

 

[DC Gunner]

I mean if Wenger sacrfices the FA Cup again this year for whatever reason knowing that it is our best chance of silverware then the man is too arrogant to change and we will never win a trophy under him again whilst he puts his eggs in one basket and continues to fail.

The FA Cup is just not important any more, it rates about the same level as the Carling these days - which is why it was fought out by Postsmouth and Cardiff last year.

Take the FA Cup away from Wenger's achievements and all he has won is 3 league titles in 12 years at Arsenal. Take the club's FA Cup successes away from our history and it would seriously effect our trophy record.

NOPE, the FA cup is important only when we count Wenger Achievements :mrgreen:

 

[hackajack]

Take the FA Cup away from Wenger's achievements and all he has won is 3 league titles in 12 years at Arsenal. Take the club's FA Cup successes away from our history and it would seriously effect our trophy record.

Its still a trophy to be won. You cant go into a season just relying on winning the league and the CL, which are the two toughest trophies in club football.

The FA Cup was a premier trophy until about five years ago, it's status these days doesn't devalue what it meant in the past but like it or not it's not particularly worth winning today. A trophy means the PL or CL anything else is just a consolation prize.

 

[DC Gunner]

Take the FA Cup away from Wenger's achievements and all he has won is 3 league titles in 12 years at Arsenal. Take the club's FA Cup successes away from our history and it would seriously effect our trophy record.

Its still a trophy to be won. You cant go into a season just relying on winning the league and the CL, which are the two toughest trophies in club football.

The FA Cup was a premier trophy until about five years ago, it's status these days doesn't devalue what it meant in the past but like it or not it's not particularly worth winning today. A trophy means the PL or CL anything else is just a consolation prize.

So that means we have not won anything worthy since the invincibles

 

[number_0]

Contrary to popular belief, I think the FA has become harder to win, before we used to walk to the semis easily, and only top 4 teams could win it, now teams like everton, villa, and spuds, think they have a shot at challanging for it, which makes it all the more tougher, as they have stronger squads they they did 5 years ago, The FA hasnt lost its prestigue imo, its just the value of winning the league or CL has just sky rocketed it just dwarfs the minnow cups.
I hope if we face a tough team in the cup we field our strongest team there, if we play a small team we give the kids a kick about, but with the objective to win, not keep possesion.

 

[Webdesignlab]

It's not as simple as that any more, what with what's happened over at Man City. That's why I wanted a ceasefire in the Arsenal Mania politics war so we could all get behind the team and reassess the situation at the end of the season depending on-

1. What experienced players were brought in, in January.

2. Whether we secure a top 4 finish or not.

3. Whether we win some silverware.

4. What experienced players are brought in next summer.

Add to that if Cesc goes. As it stands IF Cesc leaves, with the way things are done right now, his position would be filled by an existing team member. The money would not be spent on a replacement talisman.

However, surely it will not continue like this if we do not get the 4th spot. It is too ridiculous a notion to see us at 5th fighting media heckles, UEFA cup crappy pitches and with Cesc or X leaving without a big spending overhaul. If so ... AW has to go.

 

[Zico]

I would like Wenger to enjoy a lot of success this season because I love this team, but I do not expect us to win anything or challenge. We sit here complaining about players determination and ability, and the constitution all day long, but these are all factors that Wenger is responsible for.

I was really annoyed when I saw our most recent financial statements because they suggest that we would have been able to absorb the transfer fees and salaries of two players of he quality/price of Alonso or Barry. Wenger chose not to because he is blinded by his ideal of a team that HE built. That, I believe, is the source of our pain right now. Ego on Mr. Wenger's part. We need a fresh perspective. We need someone who does not have Wenger's blind-spots - eg, the need for quality and experience, or the value of a strong defense. Wenger needs to change his outlook, or bring in an assistant manager who complements him. Else, he must go.

 

[Rohit]

I wish Wenger resigns if he fails to hold on to the players he has built this squad with. We will have spent 4 seasons on nothing if these players start wanting out. 4 seasons of faith, belief and hope for some would seem wasted along with the million heartaches we have suffered.

It isn't so much for the fans but more so because Wenger would have lost his own battle then. He has absorbed enough criticism over these years and fought for these players. He has shown belief in their abilities and trusted his judgement and their talent. If all this is betrayed then we might as well start all anew i.e. including change in the manager.

If Wenger manages to keep these players then i hope he signs an extension as i too believe in the quality i see right down through our reserves, to deliver trophies and bring long lasting success to Arsenal Football Club.

 

[Klaus Daimler]

I was really annoyed when I saw our most recent financial statements because they suggest that we would have been able to absorb the transfer fees and salaries of two players of he quality/price of Alonso or Barry.

I think it was more a question about finding the right player. In hindsight it's easy to say that Barry would have been a good signing since he's enjoying his best start of a season ever right now, but Alonso's been the complete opposite. I don't think Wenger thought any of them to be good enough to hold a starting role in Arsenal (or at the very least he thought that they didn't offer much more than any player he already had, something I agree with), and the prizes were a bit expensive for squad filling. Other fillers, like Inler, decided not to come here. Whatever one might think about the activity in the last transfer window it's pretty absurd to blame our recent struggles on the central midfield position.

Wenger chose not to because he is blinded by his ideal of a team that HE built. That, I believe, is the source of our pain right now. Ego on Mr. Wenger's part.

I think you're right to some extent, but it's not about ideal. It's about necessity in respect to the structure he's trying to establish. I just finished reading the brilliantly written Arsénal: The making of a modern superclub (essential litterature for any fan), and it seems clear that we've been working for quite some time towards a self-supporting model where we're developing players in order to educate them in the way Arsenal plays football from a young age. When you're saying financial statements I'm guessing you're referring to the turnover without taking debt and other factors into account that reduces the solid profit. We still have more than enough money to buy a Alonso or a Barry of course, but in Wengers eyes it would have been hating on the system. The whole idea of educating young players into the Arsenal model is that they will be able to step up when opportunity knocks on the door (not to say he'll never buy new players, of course; Nasri is a example of him buying when needing a direct replacement for someone). He already had Denilson and Diaby in the squad and thought it sufficient enough. And, you have to admit, the start of the season have proved him right. Denilson is playing very well. In the end it's down to two things mainly. Either you A) agree with the view that even Portsmouth and West Ham are outnumbering us in regard to how much they can spend on transfers and that the right option is to develop talent as much as it's possible instead of just buying it, or B) think that the board screwed us over when they didn't went down the Dein path and sold out to some oligarch who could have provided the necessary means for short-term success. Either way, it's got very little to do with Wenger's ego and everything to do with how the club works.

We need a fresh perspective. We need someone who does not have Wenger's blind-spots - eg, the need for quality and experience, or the value of a strong defense. Wenger needs to change his outlook, or bring in an assistant manager who complements him. Else, he must go.

You place yourself in a position where you claim to know a thing or two about how Wenger works, but you show few signs of it. You talk about short-sightedness and blind-spots; I see long-term planning and a manager who invests a lot of trust in his players. You say we lack quality or experience; I say that quality is something we've got truckloads of and that experience is gained playing within a system, not outside of it. Having played for Villa for ten years is not the same as playing for Arsenal. Don't you think it's a bit late to criticise the organisational restructure NOW, when it's actually showing signs of working? I mean, I understand that people are criticale towards the decision to not buy any reinforcements of the squad at all this summer or that they have a thing or two to say about Wenger's ideas about substitutions and tactics during games, but it's beyond me how anyone can still keep ranting about his management style and proclaiming that he either needs to rethink the whole system or else needs to go when we're still very much at the beginning of the season and just a few points away from the top spot in the league.

 

[DC Gunner]

I was really annoyed when I saw our most recent financial statements because they suggest that we would have been able to absorb the transfer fees and salaries of two players of he quality/price of Alonso or Barry.

I think it was more a question about finding the right player. In hindsight it's easy to say that Barry would have been a good signing since he's enjoying his best start of a season ever right now, but Alonso's been the complete opposite.

What hindsight exactly, people have been talking about him for a while before the window closed, if anything, it should be called foresight.

Whatever one might think about the activity in the last transfer window it's pretty absurd to blame our recent struggles on the central midfield position.

you have your choice of the following:

1-Not enough quality depth
2-CHOSEN Players not performing
3-Tactics not working

I think you're right to some extent, but it's not about ideal. It's about necessity in respect to the structure he's trying to establish. I just finished reading the brilliantly written Arsénal: The making of a modern superclub (essential litterature for any fan), and it seems clear that we've been working for quite some time towards a self-supporting model where we're developing players in order to educate them in the way Arsenal plays football from a young age.

That pretty much answers my question from Sabre's thread:

We are custom making making players in a way that does not make them the best they can be while saying it would make the team the best it can be, it also explains the reluctance [not accounting based] to buying established players who have more tricks up their sleeves when it comes to football since they are going to be bigger [talent and experience wise] than the role they are assigned.

Don't you think it's a bit late to criticise the organisational restructure NOW, when it's actually showing signs of working?

Which signs exactly !?

 

[Klaus Daimler]

I wish Wenger resigns if he fails to hold on to the players he has built this squad with. We will have spent 4 seasons on nothing if these players start wanting out. 4 seasons of faith, belief and hope for some would seem wasted along with the million heartaches we have suffered.

True, it would be bad if everyone decided to leave after they get their breakthrough. But how many players like that are we talking about? Flamini and Hleb? I don't really think they're fair examples. Flamini wanted out already the year before his breakthrough but was convinced to stay and fight for a place in the team. Not even Wenger foresaw the rapid development that turned him into a world class midfielder in just a few months. And it was known since the icecream incident in february that Hleb wanted to bail on us. In my opinon we don't miss him at all since we've got Nasri instead now. You might as well point to Fabregas, Clichy, Touré, van Persie and Adebayor and say that we've managed to hold onto quite a few of them.

 

[Klaus Daimler]

What hindsight exactly, people have been talking about him for a while before the window closed, if anything, it should be called foresight.

Hindsight in respect to the transfer window, of course. People were furious when Alonso wasn't signed as well, and he hasn't been playing very good for Liverpool. I wouldn't have Barry over Denilson right now if that's what you're hinting at.

you have your choice of the following:

1-Not enough quality depth
2-CHOSEN Players not performing
3-Tactics not working

Why do I have to pick one of your options? Is it more important to conform to your views and opinions than to actual facts? I'd say that we're stuggling because of three factors, none of which are directly related to your list:

1. Key players such as Cesc and Gallas being drained of fatigue due to a long summer
2. Already ESTABLISHED players performing below their level
3. We've failed to treat our opponents with the respect they might deserve

We haven't started off worse than United, that's for sure, and to my mind we've got a better squad overall than they have. I honestly don't see the cause for pessimism every single time we lose a point. Sure, it does call for some constructed and thought-through analysis, but not clueless rants on all the wrong things to blame.

We are custom making making players in a way that does not make them the best they can be while saying it would make the team the best it can be, it also explains the reluctance [not accounting based] to buying established players who have more tricks up their sleeves when it comes to football since they are going to be bigger [talent and experience wise] than the role they are assigned.

I don't know where you've got that from, but I disagree. If anything the way we play encourages players to be creative and find good use for their talent rather than just resign to a static role like at, say, Bolton, where they haven't got the quality or ideology to play a possession based game.

Which signs exactly !?

Come ooooon. The amount of young players that have turned into first teamers in recent years is impressive, say what you want about the overall performance of the team. Last year we were four points away from the PL title with players such as Bendtner and Theo in the squad. This year they have taken another step and gained much more experience. People are calling out for the big dane to start games nowadays and Walcott is tearing opponents apart boosted by the confidence of a hattrick against Croatia. They wouldn't be close to their current level without the chances they got last season to gain experience, Sure, it's a balance walk between fielding young players in their early developmend and fielding world class through and through, but it's one that's necessary to make as well. Look at Chelsea. They've just signed Mineiro for the rest of the season. How will Mikel and the rest of the young central midfielders in their team ever develop without the chance to get a game even when the majority of the midfield is injured?