Wenger has to step up

[Biggus]

The FA Cup is just not important any more, it rates about the same level as the Carling these days - which is why it was fought out by Postsmouth and Cardiff last year.

I disagree, the FA cup is still a marvellous show piece event watched all over the world and I would be delighted if we won it.

@ Webdesignlab, I didn't mention Fabregas as I think he will stay as long as Wenger is here, once Wenger is gone I think a lot will follow him.

 

[DC Gunner]

What hindsight exactly, people have been talking about him for a while before the window closed, if anything, it should be called foresight.

Hindsight in respect to the transfer window, of course. People were furious when Alonso wasn't signed as well, and he hasn't been playing very good for Liverpool. I wouldn't have Barry over Denilson right now if that's what you're hinting at.

I would not have denilson now, the only reason he is playing is because Song is next in line

you have your choice of the following:

1-Not enough quality depth
2-CHOSEN Players not performing
3-Tactics not working

Why do I have to pick one of your options? Is it more important to conform to your views and opinions than to actual facts? I'd say that we're stuggling because of three factors, none of which are directly related to your list:

You don't have, you have to show me something UNIQUE TO US.

1. Key players such as Cesc and Gallas being drained of fatigue due to a long summer

so are other teams' players, NEXT

2. Already ESTABLISHED players performing below their level

whose fault is that ? NEXT

3. We've failed to treat our opponents with the respect they might deserve

whose responsibility is that ?

We haven't started off worse than United, that's for sure, and to my mind we've got a better squad overall than they have.

I disagree, their CB pairing makes a large difference, everything else being equal.

I honestly don't see the cause for pessimism every single time we lose a point. Sure, it does call for some constructed and thought-through analysis, but not clueless rants on all the wrong things to blame.

The cause of pessimism is not the loss of points, the loss of points are the symptoms of an issue already diagnosed by many, including Arsène himself.

We are custom making making players in a way that does not make them the best they can be while saying it would make the team the best it can be, it also explains the reluctance [not accounting based] to buying established players who have more tricks up their sleeves when it comes to football since they are going to be bigger [talent and experience wise] than the role they are assigned.

I don't know where you've got that from, but I disagree. If anything the way we play encourages players to be creative and find good use for their talent rather than just resign to a static role like at, say, Bolton, where they haven't got the quality or ideology to play a possession based game.

I don't see our system encouraging for creativity as it is right now.

Which signs exactly !?

Come ooooon. The amount of young players that have turned into first teamers in recent years is impressive, say what you want about the overall performance of the team.

out of how many young players invested in !!! paid for !!! and created future hope around !?

Last year we were four points away from the PL title with players such as Bendtner and Theo in the squad.

No, we had Hleb, Flamini, and Eduardo playing, not to mention Jens as an experienced backup in case something happened !

This year they have taken another step and gained much more experience.

Disagree, we have lost experience.

People are calling out for the big dane to start games nowadays and Walcott is tearing opponents apart boosted by the confidence of a hattrick against Croatia. They wouldn't be close to their current level without the chances they got last season to gain experience, Sure, it's a balance walk between fielding young players in their early development and fielding world class through and through, but it's one that's necessary to make as well.

I don't think we have world class in our team outside Cesc and Maybe ADE.

Rosicky and RVP are crocked world class [if one wants to classify them as world class to begin with].

Clichy and Sagna are either not good crossers of the ball as they are showing now, or the wingers [???] are not helping them, you choose it.

Gallas, well,LET Biggus speak of him

Toure does not strike as mentally strong to lead a defense.

Nasri can and will be probably world class [if he stays healthy]

Theo is not consistent enough but once he does become one, he will be world class.

Manny is just an ordinary keeper.

I understand the limitations we have, that is why I accept the strike force to be as diverse as it is, it reduces the dependence on one scorer.

Our tactic seems to be ball control as opposed to pace control, it leaves us @ the mercy of what the other team decides to do.

2 Goals against Fulham, Hull, and WBA [2 of them @ home] does not strike me with optimism

Look at Chelsea. They've just signed Mineiro for the rest of the season. How will Mikel and the rest of the young central midfielders in their team ever develop without the chance to get a game even when the majority of the midfield is injured?

Development and Winning are important, to take development over winning is buying fish in water unless you have good assurances which we don't

 

[Klaus Daimler]

1. Key players such as Cesc and Gallas being drained of fatigue due to a long summer

so are other teams' players, NEXT

You're having quite a hangup on other teams, haven't you? What does it matter what others have and don't have? We've been struggling partly because a couple of our main players have been playing a lot in the summer and that's all that should be said.

2. Already ESTABLISHED players performing below their level

whose fault is that ? NEXT

Their own, mostly. Lack of form happens, you know. It sure isn't down to quality.

3. We've failed to treat our opponents with the respect they might deserve

whose responsibility is that ?

The players, mostly. They might have felt that they were unbeatable after a couple of early good results and Hull and Fulham served as good reminders of that they always need to work hard to win a game then.

The cause of pessimism is not the loss of points, the loss of points are the symptoms of an issue already diagnosed by many, including Arsène himself.

Wenger has never said that we've dropped points due to lack of quality in any aspect of the field. That's a lie. Maybe the players haven't performed at a level expected of them in every game, but that's not the same thing.

I don't see our system encouraging for creativity as it is right now.

Of course you don't. You don't see much at all, do you?

Which signs exactly !?

Come ooooon. The amount of young players that have turned into first teamers in recent years is impressive, say what you want about the overall performance of the team.

out of how many young players invested in !!! paid for !!! and created future hope around !?

Are we throwing any absurdly large amounts of money on the youth system? No, it's because it's a cheaper option that we're opting for it. And does it matter how many players we develop in the academy each year? No. What matters is that a few of them break through, and that's exactly what has happened the last few seasons - hence the statement that it's showing signs of working.

No, we had Hleb, Flamini, and Eduardo playing, not to mention Jens as an experienced backup in case something happened !

I guess theres' a question in there somewhere but I can't seem to find it. I never disregarded the fact that we had those players. This year we've got Nasri and Denilson instead of Hleb and Flamini. Let's give them a full season before we start ranting, eh? No one who wasn't * wanted Hleb or Flamini anywhere near the starting eleven at the beginning of last season either, but it turned out pretty good in the end.

I understand the limitations we have, that is why I accept the strike force to be as diverse as it is, it reduces the dependence on one scorer.

No, you like to be pessimistic just in case the team doesn't win anything. In that way you haven't invested any passion or hope into a season that have failed in expectations. You're conciously underestimating the value of the team, but that's your own fault and not Wenger's.

Development and Winning are important, to take development over winning is buying fish in water unless you have good assurances which we don't

You're making it sound as it's either the one way or the other when it's clearly not. Imagine where we'd been last season if Robin and Eduardo hadn't been injured for so long instead.

 

[DC Gunner]

You're having quite a hangup on other teams, haven't you?

no, it seems to bother you to show an example that what you are saying just making excuses up.

2. Already ESTABLISHED players performing below their level

whose fault is that ? NEXT

Their own, mostly. Lack of form happens, you know. It sure isn't down to quality.

3. We've failed to treat our opponents with the respect they might deserve

whose responsibility is that ?

The players, mostly. They might have felt that they were unbeatable after a couple of early good results and Hull and Fulham served as good reminders of that they always need to work hard to win a game then.

OK !!?

What is Wenger's job exactly then !

The cause of pessimism is not the loss of points, the loss of points are the symptoms of an issue already diagnosed by many, including Arsène himself.

Wenger has never said that we've dropped points due to lack of quality in any aspect of the field. That's a lie. Maybe the players haven't performed at a level expected of them in every game, but that's not the same thing.

Wenger admitted multiple times that we needed players in some department, NOW THAT IS NOT LIE [as selective interpretations of quotes try to make it :wink:]

I don't see our system encouraging for creativity as it is right now.

Of course you don't. You don't see much at all, do you?

Great response :roll:

which signs exactly !?

Come ooooon. The amount of young players that have turned into first teamers in recent years is impressive, say what you want about the overall performance of the team.

out of how many young players invested in !!! paid for !!! and created future hope around !?

Are we throwing any absurdly large amounts of money on the youth system? No, it's because it's a cheaper option that we're opting for it. And does it matter how many players we develop in the academy each year? No.

Thank YOU , where do we get the rest !!? :|

No, we had Hleb, Flamini, and Eduardo playing, not to mention Jens as an experienced backup in case something happened !

I guess theres' a question in there somewhere but I can't seem to find it. I never disregarded the fact that we had those players. This year we've got Nasri and Denilson instead of Hleb and Flamini. Let's give them a full season before we start ranting, eh?

omg, another full season OF TRIAL for players !!! :roll:

No one who wasn't * wanted Hleb or Flamini anywhere near the starting eleven at the beginning of last season either, but it turned out pretty good in the end.

Speak for yourself, I wanted Hleb in the starting lineup last year.

Flamini is EPL experience lost, just like Diarra !

I understand the limitations we have, that is why I accept the strike force to be as diverse as it is, it reduces the dependence on one scorer.

No, you like to be pessimistic just in case the team doesn't win anything.

I don't remember appointing you my spokesperson, so the answer is YOU ARE WRONG, dead wrong.

In that way you haven't invested any passion or hope into a season that have failed in expectations. You're conciously underestimating the value of the team, but that's your own fault and not Wenger's.

Do I even need to respond to the above nonsense :argue

Development and Winning are important, to take development over winning is buying fish in water unless you have good assurances which we don't

You're making it sound as it's either the one way or the other when it's clearly not. Imagine where we'd been last season if Robin and Eduardo hadn't been injured for so long instead.

But we don't have some of last season's players do we ?

 

[Webdesignlab]

Development and Winning are important, to take development over winning is buying fish in water unless you have good assurances which we don't

You're making it sound as it's either the one way or the other when it's clearly not. Imagine where we'd been last season if Robin and Eduardo hadn't been injured for so long instead.

But we don't have some of last season's players do we ?[/quote] (sorry about the quote DC I can't quite get it right (and me in web design as well LOL ops: )

Sorry Klaus but clearly the team that you are talking about has lost a couple of players, only one which was replaced.

 

[Klaus Daimler]

Wenger admitted multiple times that we needed players in some department, NOW THAT IS NOT LIE [as selective interpretations of quotes try to make it :wink:]

I've already acknowledged the fact that he tried to sign another midfielder in my previous posts. Doesn't mean that he was looking for someone who would automatically walk straight into the team, and it doesn't mean that Denilson haven't been playing great this far.

I don't see our system encouraging for creativity as it is right now.

Of course you don't. You don't see much at all, do you?

Great response :roll:[/quote]
The response you deserve, obviously. Stop expressing opinions as facts then, because it's obviously not true. Your whole statement was a grave misrepresentation of everything that the Arsenal model stands for.

Thank YOU , where do we get the rest !!? :|

... they're already here? What, do you think we're gonna buy a new team each year? The whole idea is that a few players are gonna be able to step up when others leave. I already said that there's the obvious need for direct replacement sometimes, e.g. Hleb->Nasri.

I don't remember appointing you my spokesperson, so the answer is YOU ARE WRONG, dead wrong.

Maybe. But that's the feeling I get from you. Seriously - why the overly negative attitude? I get that you're unhappy with certain things, but this much? Really? Have you got no faith at all in either the players, the club or the people running it?

But we don't have some of last season's players do we ?

No we don't, and that's regrettable. But we've got Nasri instead of Hleb, in my book a clear improvement, and we couldn't really stop either Flamini or Lehmann from leaving.

 

[Klaus Daimler]

Sorry Klaus but clearly the team that you are talking about has lost a couple of players, only one which was replaced.

Yes, I'm not arguing against that fact. I said that the whole idea is that players should be able to step up once in a while, like Denilson did. And Ramsey came from the other end and took Denilson's spot as a developing centre midfield talent. Cocnerning Hleb we replaced him straight off with a better player. I don't like the fact that they left either, but I don't think we've got a weaker team because of it.

 

[hackajack]

Wenger admitted multiple times that we needed players in some department, NOW THAT IS NOT LIE [as selective interpretations of quotes try to make it :wink:]

Yeah, he said quite clearly that we were vulnerable to the long ball down the middle (subtle statistical analysis by Prozone that the dumbcluck watching the game wouldn't have spotted) and he would be looking to address this with a CB signing..... then it was Kompany's not the man.....maybe we don't need a CB after all............THEN oh **** we're not very tall are we?

 

[hackajack]

Yes, I'm not arguing against that fact. I said that the whole idea is that players should be able to step up once in a while, like Denilson did. And Ramsey came from the other end and took Denilson's spot as a developing centre midfield talent. Cocnerning Hleb we replaced him straight off with a better player. I don't like the fact that they left either, but I don't think we've got a weaker team because of it.

Last season we had megastep ups from Adebayor and Flamini plus an incredible step in from Sagna. It's not reasonable to expect that every season. Denilson has largely been mediocre and Nasri, though he's made a great start, has some way to go to match Hleb.

 

[Klaus Daimler]

Last season we had megastep ups from Adebayor and Flamini plus an incredible step in from Sagna. It's not reasonable to expect that every season. Denilson has largely been mediocre and Nasri, though he's made a great start, has some way to go to match Hleb.

Adebayor and Sagna are still here, aren't they? And Bendtner and Theo are much better this time around. And we've got van Persie injury free (well, he's not right now I guess, but he should be when he gets back from the internationals). And we've got Vela as well who looks real quality.

Considering Nasri he was a better player already a season ago than Hleb was, obvious to most who watches french football generally and Marseille particularly. Not to say that Hleb didn't come good for a couple of months last season, but not that good. Considering Denilson, he has been anything but mediocre this far.

 

[hackajack]

Considering Nasri he was a better player already a season ago than Hleb was, obvious to most who watches french football generally and Marseille particularly.

That's just bollox Nasri was playing in Ligue 1, Hleb was a superb player for us in the PL. And while Nasri is a great talent, who will I think be bettter than Alex in the long run, he ain't there yet.

 

[Zico]

I blame Wenger for everything that goes wrong in this team except in instances where a player clearly needs to sort things out himself - eg Gallas. Likewise, if he manages to get this motley crew to win a trophy, he will deserve all the praise as an architect of that victory. Right now, his team is terrible and he is to blame because he put it together and trains it every week. Simple.

 

[DC Gunner]

I've already acknowledged the fact that he tried to sign another midfielder in my previous posts.

good

Doesn't mean that he was looking for someone who would automatically walk straight into the team

not it does not, but given who we have now, it should

and it doesn't mean that Denilson haven't been playing great this far.

that in itself does not mean denilson haven't been playing great, denilson not playing great on the other hand does mean itself on its' own.

The response you deserve, obviously. Stop expressing opinions as facts then, because it's obviously not true. Your whole statement was a grave misrepresentation of everything that the Arsenal model stands for.

and is that your opinion, or A FACT ?

they're already here?

No, they are not ALL here, I don't agree.

Maybe. But that's the feeling I get from you. Seriously - why the overly negative attitude? I get that you're unhappy with certain things, but this much? Really? Have you got no faith at all in either the players, the club or the people running it?

If I had no faith, I would not be disappointed, disappointment is when you have faith and get let down.

No we don't, and that's regrettable. But we've got Nasri instead of Hleb, in my book a clear improvement, and we couldn't really stop either Flamini or Lehmann from leaving.

we may not have been able to stop them, yes, but we have not replaced them either.

 

[Klaus Daimler]

and it doesn't mean that Denilson haven't been playing great this far.

that in itself does not mean denilson haven't been playing great, denilson not playing great on the other hand does mean itself on its' own.

Oh, but Denilson has been playing great. Maybe you just don't realize it, but that's not his fault.

The response you deserve, obviously. Stop expressing opinions as facts then, because it's obviously not true. Your whole statement was a grave misrepresentation of everything that the Arsenal model stands for.

and is that your opinion, or A FACT ?

That would be a fact. What is true is that the training is meticuosly designed to hone technique and improve awarefulness on the field in order to get the players into the habit of making the right choices and being able to foresee what their teammates are instinctively going to do. What is also true is that it establishes a backbone, a structure to fall back on, that's not directly depending on individual difference. But that's just the basis. Wenger has stated numerous times that technical superiority is what wins games. The players are encouraged to be as creative as possible. Or as Stewart Robson stated it in aforementioned book: "He develops players not by fantastic coaching but by giving them the environment to express and experiment themselves. He takes the fear out of their play by coaxing them to be more elaborate, precise and imaginative."
All of which should be fairly obvious even to the casual observer of Arsenal.

Maybe. But that's the feeling I get from you. Seriously - why the overly negative attitude? I get that you're unhappy with certain things, but this much? Really? Have you got no faith at all in either the players, the club or the people running it?

If I had no faith, I would not be disappointed, disappointment is when you have faith and get let down.

Not really, is it? Disappointment is the effect of being let down of something in the past. It's not a reason for being pessimistic about a new season per se. Why do you still linger at last season when we're at a new one right now?

 

[Klaus Daimler]

Considering Nasri he was a better player already a season ago than Hleb was, obvious to most who watches french football generally and Marseille particularly.

That's just bollox Nasri was playing in Ligue 1, Hleb was a superb player for us in the PL. And while Nasri is a great talent, who will I think be bettter than Alex in the long run, he ain't there yet.

It's obviously not bollox. Hleb wasn't playing well at all during his time in Arsenal, bar last season. He was very mediocre during his first two seasons and then he had one last year where he overall was very good. Nasri had two great seasons before he joined Arsenal, and even though the last one got ruptured by injuries and he played considerably less than both Benzema and Ben Arfa he still got elected the best young player in France. Maybe you didn't know about him before this season, but he was certainly a better player than Hleb last season and the season before that as well.

 

[DC Gunner]

Oh, but Denilson has been playing great. Maybe you just don't realize it, but that's not his fault.

Well, I don't think so, just because you haven't realized it yet, it is not my fault.

That would be a fact. What is true is that the training is meticuosly designed to hone technique and improve awarefulness on the field in order to get the players into the habit of making the right choices and being able to foresee what their teammates are instinctively going to do. What is also true is that it establishes a backbone, a structure to fall back on, that's not directly depending on individual difference. But that's just the basis. Wenger has stated numerous times that technical superiority is what wins games. The players are encouraged to be as creative as possible. Or as Stewart Robson stated it in aforementioned book: "He develops players not by fantastic coaching but by giving them the environment to express and experiment themselves. He takes the fear out of their play by coaxing them to be more elaborate, precise and imaginative."
All of which should be fairly obvious even to the casual observer of Arsenal.

I don't think our players are allowed to express themselves on the field, I think it is done even if it meant not scoring a goal unless it is the way they apparently were [or seem to be have been told] told to do

Not really, is it? Disappointment is the effect of being let down of something in the past. It's not a reason for being pessimistic about a new season per se. Why do you still linger at last season when we're at a new one right now?

Well, first, I personally get disappointed when I have faith and get let down.
Secondly, I am not lingering on last season, I viewed it as something to build upon, yet, I saw it partially dismantled @ the start of this season.

 

[Anzac]

I've said before that IMO the C Cup squad is the expression of 'Wengerball' - not the seniors!!!

AW needs to step up this season to adapt his 'Wengerball' to suit the players available. I agree with Klaus that he develops a style based upon team attributes as opposed to individual flair, but with the seniors for me thay are often asked to perform with one hand tied behind their back re formation / player selection in key areas.

The flaw in the short passing game is that you need room on the pitch to move. Against a packed defence we push up & limit that space - we do part of the defence's job for them in restricting our own space to play. To avoid this scenario you need to play the game at pace to open the defence before they get set. Alternatively if they play deep from the offset, then you need individual players with close control & flair to be your game breakers by taking on the defenders - you also need support players to work off the ball, and we lack both in our regular starting XI.

 

[beck]

I blame Wenger for everything that goes wrong in this team except in instances where a player clearly needs to sort things out himself - eg Gallas. Likewise, if he manages to get this motley crew to win a trophy, he will deserve all the praise as an architect of that victory. Right now, his team is terrible and he is to blame because he put it together and trains it every week. Simple.

motley crew? terrible team? behave. you need to get out of that toddeling town mate.its affecting your sense of preportion

 

[Anzac]

There's a frequently used riposte used here that goes along the lines of real life not being like FM etc. However, as any FM LLM (Lower League Manager) will tell you - you either buy the players to suit your style / system of play OR you play a system to best suit your available players / finances. My contention is that AW having refused the former option, is now faced with having to follow the latter option if he wishes to address any of the issues facing the team performances.

While this may indicate a concession that his internal development options have not met the required standards, to not do so would indicate an acceptance of the inconsistancies that have continued to plague the team performances for several seasons.

Having said that I would still be surprised to see any activity in the January window, if for no other reason than AW will be looking at the likes of Rosicky, Eduardo, Silvestre & Bischoff coming available after injury as 4 new players already.

 

[kamikaze80]

anzac, i generally agree with you but i hate when you say "wengerball". wenger didnt invent a new style of play - we're just a good footballing side.