Why blame Arsenal for England's problems!?!

[Gooner T]

Some of you are full of s**t, comparing roonry to ronaldo is the most silly argument i have seen in a long time but lets leave it there.

Not really.

We are debating who is more effective.

If you wanna see who is more effective simply look at the stats. i.e. goals + assists. Not to mention the amount of games ronaldo won for utd last season compared to rooney. Im not sayin your full of ****, but i am saying that you are seriously wrong and the stats prove it. Another factor, look at Ronaldo's performances for Portugal over the last two years. The **** scores in almost every match for them. I dont like this geezer believe me, but saying that him and rooney are on the same level is simply delusional.

 

[Tony Montana]

Some of you are full of s**t, comparing roonry to ronaldo is the most silly argument i have seen in a long time but lets leave it there.

Not really.

We are debating who is more effective.

If you wanna see who is more effective simply look at the stats. i.e. goals + assists. Not to mention the amount of games ronaldo won for utd last season compared to rooney. Im not sayin your full of s**t, but i am saying that you are seriously wrong and the stats prove it. Another factor, look at Ronaldo's performances for Portugal over the last two years. The c**t scores in almost every match for them. I dont like this geezer believe me, but saying that him and rooney are on the same level is simply delusional.

You always get annoyed when people disagree with you. And I never said Rooney was on the same level as Ronaldo. I said in the CL he was just as good, if only in the knock out stages. I never said out right that Rooney is better. Ronaldo has been swag in the CL most times anyway. Last season he stepped up. You're just having a pop at me for no reason. We are debating (ie people on this forum) who has been better in their career. You say Ronaldo, Gurgen for example says Rooney. I say Ronaldo just but Rooney is still world class for me.

You still haven't told me what criteria you use for world class.

 

[Gooner T]

Fair play about Henry but does Rooney winning the PFA young player of the year award two years in a row count for nothing then? It's the same judges and I haven't seen Cesc win that so maybe many people on here are overrating him when they say that Cesc is the best young player in the world. In fact Cesc can't even get into the first team for Spain, a team (and a country) that have consistently underachieved over the years. Perhaps he's is not really a special player. I mean how many goals did he score last season?

I would be the first person to tell you that Cesc is not a world class player yet. However, his level of consistency is much higher than Rooney's. I think that should be clear to anyone who watches both teams regularly. Rooney bags his goals in bunches... i.e a double or a hat trick, followed by 8 games with out scoring and so on. That was the main charactersitic of last season. Even Fergie has come out and said that while his amount of goals scored is good, the amount of games scored in is not. (There is a an important differentiation to be made.)

Except we all know that game against Argentina wasn't meaningless. England don't do friendlies and don't be so naive as to think Argentina didn't care either. Not as much as England maybe, but they did care.

Yes, they cared so much that they brought of Riquelme and Crespo with 20 minutes of the game left (when 2-1 up), the two players that had damaged england for 70 minutes. That would NOT have happened in a world cup match.

Why is it one rule for Gerrard and another for Rooney? You say Rooney is crap for England which means he's not world class but Gerrard is crap because England as a whole are crap.

I'm sorry if i didnt make myself clear. They are both average (not crap) in international football. However, what I was trying to say is that I consider Gerrard to be a world class player because of his consistency and individual acomplishment at club level. Despite his international troubles. Rooney does not have this in his locker to back him up (yet).

As Shredder just mentioned, Rooney did well in 2004 and was crocked just before the 2006 World Cup. He played a couple of full games straight after an injury. You gave more leeway for Henry in the same situation for Arsenal

Yes, Shredder mentioned that Rooney "dominated" Euro 2004. This is a classic case of English Player Hype. He scored 3 goals in the group stages of the tournament against such giants as Switzerland and Croatia. Let me ask you this question, did Henry dominate France 98?

As for 2006 and Henry leeway... you are right. But as i said before, Henry's 5-6 seasons of consistently outstanding displays earns him that leeway, and earns him the right to be labelled world class. Rooney has nowhere near achieved that yet.

Rooney has a lot of media coverage, he's english, he plays for Manure, therefore he's overrated. It's bollocks. In those games Rooney played he was influential in the CL last season. I'm not just talking about the goals. Rooney is not just a goalscorer. He's a big game player anyway.

That is a wonderful attribute to have, if complemented by consistency throughout a season. On its own, and you have a player that will go missing for long periods of the season. So much so, that the so called "big games" dont mean anything any way as you might already be out of the running. United were lucky last season that this wasnt the case becuase of one man.. Ronaldo. Ask any Man United fan, and any non-english football pundit and they will tell you the same.

 

[Tony Montana]

@Gooner T.

What do you make of FOUR FOUR TWO's judgement that Rooney is the 8th best player in the world at the moment?

 

[illmatik]

If Rooney would keep his foot in the right place often maybe we could see how brilliant he is

 

[Alfonso]

What has Rooney achieved on the CL stage that Ronaldo hasn't? If you ask me both have a hell of a lot to achieve at that stage both have imo consistently been found wanting in those games. However both are very both very young and still have loads of time to achieve things in the CL and I'm sure they will. Fantastic players though, the ability they have to dominate games at such a young age and those two have become the main men at the best club in this country and they aren't even 23 yet.

Look at Raul, 9 years ago he was the hottest prospect in World football and playing for the biggest and most famous club in world football and he was the main man there. People thought he would be up there with Maradona and Pele at the time because for someone so young the boy always did it in the big game and he helped his club win the big trophies. What you must remember is some players simply peak early. Sometimes people look at Messi, Ronaldo, Rooney and Fabregas and simply assume they will keep on improving at the rate they have, that simply won't happen otherwise they would surpass the likes of Maradona and Pele and I doubt I will see better players than them in my lifetime. Players like Henry and Zidane, peaked at a later age and the improvements they made over short periods of times was staggering. I'd say within 4 years those two went from being good players to phenomenal players. The younger players I've listed won't improve by that much in a short period of time as they already at an high level so their rise will be more gradual.

Good post, I agree with most of what you have said. The rise of Henry was unbelivable, even more rapid and dramatic than Zizou. Henry went from sound footballer to world beater in almost a matter of 6 months( jan 2000-june 2000). Zidane always had it in him imo, from looking back at French football back in the day. Is just signing and playing for Juve took him to everyones attention and thats where he really made his name. But his standout peformance for Bordeux against Milan in the UEFA Cup of 96 was his 'Novak Djokovic US Open 07' moment aka big break through, that basically sealed his transfer to the Turin giants.

As for your view on Rooney v Ronaldo, I dont agree im affraid. Rooney has generally done it in more big games than Ronaldo imo. For example, you just have look at Rooney's impressive record against us, as well as the FA Cup final, where I felt Rooney took the game by the neck more than Ronaldo. Overall, Rooney has had better CL games imo. For example, he scored two goals, including a last min winner, against Milan in the semi final first leg of the CL, doesnt get much bigger than that, although I appercaite Ronaldo scored, albeit being a fluky goal. Put it this way, if I had to put my money on who will have the greatest career, however that is defined, I would put it on Shrek. Who's ceiling his higher? Thats debatable, but I just feel Rooney's has more substance that will ensure he stays at the top of the game for longer.

btw, what you say about players peaking at different times is correct. Thats why people should put less pressure on our Theo (myself included). I would rather he steadly improved year on year and peaked at 25-27 ala the Henrys and Zidanes of this world, than blow the opposition away at 18-19 but peak too early ala Owen. Gradual improvment is better than short term rise.

 

[Tony Montana]

To be fair Owen has been injured a lot but he's one of those players who doesn't do much in a game and then he pops up with a great goal.

 

[beepos]

Not until the day Ronaldo has 10-12 goals in the CL along with good performances in huge matches will I consider him world class. He's a very talented player just like RvP, but then again Ronaldo will s**t all over Fulham, yet completey disappear against Milan.

10-12 mate? Even Kaka doesn't have that statistic.

But back on topic, this article is good.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2007/09/11/sfnaca111.xml

 

[celestis]

Now , people are seriously underrating Ronaldo . the guy was player of the year , scored more goals in the league than Rooney and way more assists .

The league will always be the best judge of a player as it is over 38 games . Week in , Week out . Using the CL as the standard by the same note means that LIverpool were better than Chelsea over the last couple of years. no way.

 

[Invincible]

Not until the day Ronaldo has 10-12 goals in the CL along with good performances in huge matches will I consider him world class. He's a very talented player just like RvP, but then again Ronaldo will s**t all over Fulham, yet completey disappear against Milan.

Well Henry never scored that much in the CL either, and never really performed in huge matches, he must not be a world class player then.

To be honest Ronaldo being a big game bottler is a myth. Didn't he score a brace vs us at Highbury a few years ago or do we not count as a big team?

 

[illmatik]

If Ronaldo has a better season this year, then he is the best....however, I don't know if that will happen

 

[cescthebest]

Not until the day Ronaldo has 10-12 goals in the CL along with good performances in huge matches will I consider him world class. He's a very talented player just like RvP, but then again Ronaldo will s**t all over Fulham, yet completey disappear against Milan.

Well Henry never scored that much in the CL either, and never really performed in huge matches, he must not be a world class player then.

To be honest Ronaldo being a big game bottler is a myth. Didn't he score a brace vs us at Highbury a few years ago or do we not count as a big team?

Never really performed in huge matches? man you must be smoking something thats not good to your health.

 

[celestis]

Ronaldo is the same age as Rooney , the fact that people even compare him to the best in the business is an indication of how far the guy has come. The scary thing is he can get better than he is now especially tactically .
Didn't Bobby Charlton say he could be the best in the world and Sir Alex claim him as already the best . Biased opinions yes , but the fact that Rooney is in the same team and they see them in training everyday indicates they rate Ronaldo as high or higher than Rooney.

 

[banduan]

Hmm. Ronaldo is a quality player and so is Rooney.

But, I feel that Rooney is playing well below his full potential. Rooney does things instinctively I've seen few players do, but he never does it consistently enough. He's a monster player, strong and skillful at the same time, similar to Henry in that sense.

Every now and then you get a freaky talented player like Rooney and cesc, but I don't think Ronaldo is one of those. Ronaldo is a player who has slowly refined his very good technical abilities and added strength to his game. Unlike Rooney he did not explode into being. He built this up through a few rather average seasons of showboating and trickery with no end product.

Rooney is below Ronaldo right now, but only because he's not playing the way he can.

 

[Shadow Moses]

Not until the day Ronaldo has 10-12 goals in the CL along with good performances in huge matches will I consider him world class. He's a very talented player just like RvP, but then again Ronaldo will s**t all over Fulham, yet completey disappear against Milan.

10-12 mate? Even Kaka doesn't have that statistic.

But back on topic, this article is good.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2007/09/11/sfnaca111.xml

Kaka scored 10 last CL.

 

[banduan]

You're right Beep, excellent article. Just missing one other stat: graduate playing in another 1st team

 

[Glovegun]

People here want to hate Rooney because he's a chubby, foul-mouthed Northerner playing for the poxy pack of c**ts that are Manchester United. Were he Spanish or Italian people would be holding him up as the very example of superior European technique as opposed to English players.

So far he's been unlucky with injuries, and has never had a regular strike partner - over his time at United hes partnered van Nistelrooy, Saha, Smith, and now Tevez - and none of them for very long. People forget he is young, and thus inconsistent. He has two good feet, amazing vision and awareness, very quick, immensely strong, has a great shot and picks a pass superbly. The reason he looked so good so young was because he was physically a man at 16. No 16 year old footballer Ive ever seen has that kind of physical strength and power. It was a bit misleading. He and Ronaldo are totally different players in any case.

 

[DOUBLE-YOU]

have we gone off topic?

People say that Rooney has done it in big games more than Ronaldo, but has he really? What big games? At the back end of last season both Rooney and Ronaldo went AWOL in the league. It seemed to me that they were just as effecteive as each other in Europe. Overall Ronaldo was and is the better player. A number of people have said that Ronaldo hasn't scored against the big teams. Maybe not, but he does have a decent assist rate.

 

[RockyRocastle]

Didnt Rooney go years without scoring in the CL after his debut hat trick? Or was that compeitive games for England, cant remember.

Fantastic player though, as is Ronaldo.

 

[awooga83]

Both are good players I agree on that point but I don't think either are world class yet. As Alfonso mentioned that phrase is passed around to lightly for me someone has to maintain their standard for 3-4 seasons to truly be world class, because plenty of players can have a quality season or if you play in a really good team they can help you look a bit better then you are.

So still a while yet until either can be considered world class imo.