Will this team reach it's potential in a 4-4-2?

[™}}T£M0o$£{{™]

it's a demanding tactic

of course it is and as the pitch is longer it means the full backs would have to do more running. and it means it there will be more space exposed than at highbury. Also the best full back at this tactic left the club and the second best Eboue is not on form at the moment and will most probably be replaced by lauren who is less attacking than Eboue. another thing we have been lacking is getting behind the oppositions back four and if you are counting on your full backs to do this you will always leave gaps at the back.

If you remember the zagreb goal they scored at highbury you will know exactly what im talking about.

 

[kel varnsen]

of course it is and as the pitch is longer it means the full backs would have to do more running. and it means it there will be more space exposed than at highbury. Also the best full back at this tactic left the club and the second best Eboue is not on form at the moment and will most probably be replaced by lauren who is less attacking than Eboue.

this part makes no sense at all. are you talking about the tactics in a general setting or specifically right now. you're mixing it all up and drawing conclusions at random.

another thing we have been lacking is getting behind the oppositions back four and if you are counting on your full backs to do this you will always leave gaps at the back.

it's a question of mentality. is your fear of losing greater than the desire to win. is the fear of conceding goals stronger than the desire to score goals. you obviously feel it's more important to focus on the former part; i don't and never will. luckily, most of the time wenger won't as well. attacking football is what has transformed this club into what it is today. arsenal at it's best is when the full backs join up and get behind the full back. you want to take that away and for what? a more defensive, catious and cowardice approach to football?

 

[RocktheCasbah]

To add to kel's point, though I do feel there will be times when a 451 is a sensible approach to a game, we do have Bert who acts as an auxiliary centre back when neccessary, so it's not like Kolo and Will/Phil will be completely caught with their pants down at the back..

 

[™}}T£M0o$£{{™]

of course it is and as the pitch is longer it means the full backs would have to do more running. and it means it there will be more space exposed than at highbury. Also the best full back at this tactic left the club and the second best Eboue is not on form at the moment and will most probably be replaced by lauren who is less attacking than Eboue.

this part makes no sense at all. are you talking about the tactics in a general setting or specifically right now. you're mixing it all up and drawing conclusions at random.

another thing we have been lacking is getting behind the oppositions back four and if you are counting on your full backs to do this you will always leave gaps at the back.

it's a question of mentality. is your fear of losing greater than the desire to win. is the fear of conceding goals stronger than the desire to score goals. you obviously feel it's more important to focus on the former part; i don't and never will. luckily, most of the time wenger won't as well. attacking football is what has transformed this club into what it is today. arsenal at it's best is when the full backs join up and get behind the full back. you want to take that away and for what? a more defensive, catious and cowardice approach to football?

right now.

 

[the dawn raids]

@ the dawn raids, you have your opinion, we have ours. since fabregas has been in the 1st team, our premiership campaign has been rubbish. its obvious he is a liability in a 4-4-2 formation.

so basically youre suggesting its Fabregass' fault that we finished 4th last year? what complete and utter nonsense.

its not his fault Vieria was flogged off and never replaced; its not his fault Ljungberg couldnt shoot for **** and goal production from the wings and our second striker completely dried up for the most part once van Persie went down injured; its not his fault we were missing EIGHT defenders at one point. and you know where wed be without Fabregas playing in the league? we wouldnt be very worried about formations in Europe right now, ill guarantee you that.

 

[tduffell]

I do think that this team can reach its potential in 4-4-2. i feel that wenger is the master at it and although we have a few young players and a few new players i feel we can play in this formation.it may take a bit of time to be as good as we used to be when we won the double or wen wewent on 49 game unbeaten run but i thinkits possible. i dont feel we should change the system for away games like some people have said as then you are never getting comfortavble in one formation before u change to another the next week. it would lack consistency and i don't think we would get the most out of players. I am keeping the faith in wenger as he has done it many times before in a 4-4-2, and with our style of play i think we need that formation. For the possession we have and keep in the midfield i feel we need four stronmg players there so we can keep the ball and pass it about and break the other teams down with patience like we normally do. We have drawn one and lost one but in those two games we have created bags of opportunities and hit post and cross bar. We are creating so many chances and i don't think after our performances that we need to change our formation. If we finish our chances and continue to keep the ball as we are i feel we will get back to the top of the league. I also feel that Henry reaches his true potential wen he has another striker along side him to play through or that he can make runs for to get on the end of balls played for him. Teams such as chelsea and man utd and liverpool with good defenders could isolate him if we play on up front. We have great wing backs and they always make good runs and link up well with whichever wingers we have playing and make runs to the box and then cut it back into the strikers in the box. I just feel this is the way arsenal play and i don'tfeel we will reach our potential out of this formation.

 

[Big Poppa]

I don't know why, but I just can't see us getting the best out of our current midfield by playing 4-4-2 (long term). The win against Sheffield United and the scoreline belied many of the difficulties we had getting our game going. Rosicky, Cesc and Ljungberg all had very average games on Saturday and in all honesty Sheff Utd are the poorest side in the league. At Old Trafford just 6 days earlier with those 3 in the middle, we were able to shift the ball quicker and play in neat little triangles, more effectively serving to draw the opposition out and exploit them on the break.

It's true that Man U attacked us more, but that is not why we beat them (don't listen to that Hansen bollocks). It's simply that they were overrun in midfield and it was too much for O'Shea and Scholes to handle Cesc, Rosicky and Hleb.

I think we'll play 4-4-2 against Porto on Tuesday but I fear we'll struggle to make it work. We no longer get through teams by imposing our physical presence in the middle - we utilise that additional technical ability, mobility and sharpness offered by Rosicky, Cesc and Hleb with Gilberto providing the axis for their attacking play. This is now our biggest strength. It works almost like a poetic masterpiece.

Don't wish to make excuses but I also think that we need to sort out the pitch at the Grove. Yes it looks good but it's not slick enough at all for fast attacking play on the ground. A 4-4-2 is dependent upon high tempo, fluid play and in that respect, every minor detail makes a difference.

 

[burnsjed]

Not sure if it is the just the pitch, but our build up play has deffinately become pedestrian over the last couple of seasons.
I touched on this in the Sheff Utd thread and honestly believe that without the old heart of the midfield, in Vieira, our play has suffered in that area.
We are also obviouly missing the partnership of Cole/Pires & Henry on the left.
I wonder if that is what wenger saw in Baptista last Summer when he originally went after him, not that he has a similar game in anyway to Pat, but the ability to drive us forward.

As far as the formation/tactics are concerned, I believe we need to be flexible depending on opposition and whether we are at home or away.
When we are playing the likes of Sheff Utd at home 4-4-2 with a DM does not make any sense to me what so ever.
we are effectively playing with 5 defensive players against a team that is playing with 1 attacking player.

I would like us to play a formation against teams that are not ging to attack us more like

--------------------Lehmann--------------------

-------Toure-------Senderos-------Gallas--------

--------------------Gilberto----------------------

-------Fabregas--------------Baptista------------

Hleb---------------------------------------Rosicky

----------------RVP--------Henry-----------------


You can obviously switch some of the players around, if you prefer Djourou over Senderos, Freddie over Hleb, Adebayor over RVP etc.

Thing is you still effectively have 4 defensive players with Gilberto there,
so it is not as if the defence should be over run if the opposition does
get a rush to the head and starts attacking.

For a slightly more defensive version you could bring in Freddie and have the two wide players dopping back in line with the middle 2 midfielders.


--------------------Lehmann--------------------

-------Toure-------Senderos-------Gallas--------

--------------------Gilberto----------------------

Freddie----Fabregas---------Baptista-------Rosicky

----------------RVP--------Henry-----------------


Also if you switch Freddie for Eboue the team can easily transform
into a 4-5-1, not that Eboue is ready yet to play a more attacking role.

--------------------Lehmann--------------------

Eboue---------Toure-------Senderos--------Gallas

--------------------Gilberto----------------------

RVP----Fabregas--------------Baptista-----Rosicky


---------------------Henry-----------------------

Ofcourse we can talk about this until we are blue in the face, at the
end of teh day wenger picks the team and tactics/formation and not us, thankfully!

 

[clockwork orange]

Can't see a reason why our current squad couldn't fulfill it's potential in 4-4-2 (they could well do in other systems too).

First of all we shouldn't be rigid about systems, adapting once and a while makes sense. For most matches I would prefer 4-4-2, BUT with only 2 out of the 3 Hleb, Cesc and Rosicky. The beast should be on top of the diamond.

 

[YeahBee]

Not sure if it is the just the pitch, but our build up play has deffinately become pedestrian over the last couple of seasons.
I touched on this in the Sheff Utd thread and honestly believe that without the old heart of the midfield, in Vieira, our play has suffered in that area.
We are also obviouly missing the partnership of Cole/Pires & Henry on the left.
I wonder if that is what wenger saw in Baptista last Summer when he originally went after him, not that he has a similar game in anyway to Pat, but the ability to drive us forward.

As far as the formation/tactics are concerned, I believe we need to be flexible depending on opposition and whether we are at home or away.
When we are playing the likes of Sheff Utd at home 4-4-2 with a DM does not make any sense to me what so ever.
we are effectively playing with 5 defensive players against a team that is playing with 1 attacking player.

I would like us to play a formation against teams that are not ging to attack us more like

--------------------Lehmann--------------------

-------Toure-------Senderos-------Gallas--------

--------------------Gilberto----------------------

-------Fabregas--------------Baptista------------

Hleb---------------------------------------Rosicky

----------------RVP--------Henry-----------------


You can obviously switch some of the players around, if you prefer Djourou over Senderos, Freddie over Hleb, Adebayor over RVP etc.

Thing is you still effectively have 4 defensive players with Gilberto there,
so it is not as if the defence should be over run if the opposition does
get a rush to the head and starts attacking.

For a slightly more defensive version you could bring in Freddie and have the two wide players dopping back in line with the middle 2 midfielders.


--------------------Lehmann--------------------

-------Toure-------Senderos-------Gallas--------

--------------------Gilberto----------------------

Freddie----Fabregas---------Baptista-------Rosicky

----------------RVP--------Henry-----------------


Also if you switch Freddie for Eboue the team can easily transform
into a 4-5-1, not that Eboue is ready yet to play a more attacking role.

--------------------Lehmann--------------------

Eboue---------Toure-------Senderos--------Gallas

--------------------Gilberto----------------------

RVP----Fabregas--------------Baptista-----Rosicky


---------------------Henry-----------------------

Ofcourse we can talk about this until we are blue in the face, at the
end of teh day wenger picks the team and tactics/formation and not us, thankfully!

Honestly a 3-1-4-2 tactic has to my knowledge never worked, it is just such an unbalanced team.

And you don't see the logic in playing a DM, well every team regardless on how offensive they play have one, that msut surely mean something. It gives the other midfielders (and fullbacks) all the freedom they need when we are playing a weaker side

 

[burnsjed]

If you actually read what I wrote, I said I don't see the logic of playing 4-4-2 with a DM against a team that plays with 1 offensive player.
If you look at all of the different formations I usggested they all included Gilberto, who last time I checked was a DM!

And you say that 3-1-4-2 has never worked as it is unbalanced, who actually plays it to prove that?

 

[kel varnsen]

And you say that 3-1-4-2 has never worked as it is unbalanced, who actually plays it to prove that?

kind of interrupting your discussion here, but isn't this at least an indirect proof of the assertive claim? the fact that there aren't many(or any?) teams playing 3-1-4-1 does at least suggest that it doesn't work...

 

[burnsjed]

And you say that 3-1-4-2 has never worked as it is unbalanced, who actually plays it to prove that?

kind of interrupting your discussion here, but isn't this at least an indirect proof of the assertive claim? the fact that there aren't many(or any?) teams playing 3-1-4-1 does at least suggest that it doesn't work...

I honestly don't know Kel, also there wouldn't be that many teams that would ever need to play in that formation either.
You could argue that with the position that Gilberto plays, every formation we play is a 4-1-something be it 4-1-3-2 or 4-1-4-1, given
he plays deeper then the other midfield players.
I was not advocating him playing any deeper then he currently plays.
To me it is more of a 3-5-2 then a 3-1-4-2, just that Gilberto plays deeper then the other midfielders.

It just drives me crazy watching us play 4-4-2 (or 4-1-3-2 dependng on where you put Gilberto in that formation) with Gilberto in the team (nothing against him personally, but any DM) when we are playing Sheff Utd at home, or Boro for that matter, when we know they will only operate with 1 offensive player.

We start off brightly run out of ideas and invaribly get sffocated in the middle as we are usually out numbered there.

I certainly wouldn't play a 3-5-2 against a Man U or Chelsea regardless of if we are at home or away.
But against a team like Sheff Utd, it could give us the attacking style to break them down, and given the personnel we have, it could be flexible to change into a 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 if need be.

 

[Da New Kid]

Like I just said in another thread; we cannot play a 4-4-2. We don't have the wingers to provide the width necessary for it and we don't have a dynamic duo in the middle of the field for it. Gilberto is too defensive and fabregas alone is just not gonna do it for another season.

I have no idea why wengers still plays it.

 

[RC8]

I just posted this in another thread, however, I think it actually belongs here:

First of all, I wouldn't call what we play a classic 4-4-2, as Gilberto hardly attacks. Our formation actually looks like this:

--------------Henry---Ade--------------

---Rosicky-------Fabregas-------Hleb---

-----------------Gilberto----------------

---Gallas----Djorou----Toure----Eboue---

----------------Lehmann----------------

Or to some extent, even a 4-1-2-1-2:

--------------Henry---Ade--------------

-----------------Fabregas--------------

---Rosicky-----------------------Hleb---

-----------------Gilberto----------------

---Gallas----Djorou----Toure----Eboue---

----------------Lehmann----------------

When we attack full throtle, our full backs run forward, adding the required width up front, and allowing the wingers to actually cut in and be a goal threat. One example, and a recent one of a full back providing this extra width was Henry's goal on saturday, as he received a cross from Eboue. Also, if you analise our first goal on saturday, you'll see the play originated from a cross Freddie made from midfield. Had his job been to add width, he would have had to move nearer to the goal, and he would have had the man who was marking Eboue during that play over him. This allowed Ljunberg, who has more accurate crossing and more creativity (as a midfielder should have compared to a defender), to give the ball to Henry, who passed the ball to Fabregas, only for Gallas (who had run from down the left flank) to finish and score.

Our players do need, however, to adapt to the new positions they are playing, and in that respect Hleb has done a remarkable job for the last 12 months, although he still has some work to do. Rosicky will adapt quickier, but he will still need time. The good thing is that while they adapt, they will still provide enough quality for us as to finish off most teams. The reason most players pass the ball to Fabregas for him to send the final pass is because he likes to do so. Rosicky has sent through many players in his short time at the club. But this is because of the way these players play. Rosicky and Fabregas like to try giving the final ball, while Hleb prefers to put someone in a better position.

And, while Fabregas IS without a doubt, the leader in midfield, there are other leaders througout the pitch that also hold the same responsabilities that he does, but with other areas of our game.

Sorry for the re-post, but I think it actually contributes to the discussion.

 

[Da New Kid]

RC8, with the three creative midfielders we're playing we're loosing the surprise/ counter-attack factor that favored us for so many seasons.

Hleb contributes to nothing playing where he's playing, he's just adding like 10 of the 40 useless passes we make around the box. He doesn't shoot from outside the box, he can't drible past the defenders. He deserves the bench. Baptista and RVP should be getting more minutes tho.

 

[YeahBee]

And you say that 3-1-4-2 has never worked as it is unbalanced, who actually plays it to prove that?

kind of interrupting your discussion here, but isn't this at least an indirect proof of the assertive claim? the fact that there aren't many(or any?) teams playing 3-1-4-1 does at least suggest that it doesn't work...

I honestly don't know Kel, also there wouldn't be that many teams that would ever need to play in that formation either.
You could argue that with the position that Gilberto plays, every formation we play is a 4-1-something be it 4-1-3-2 or 4-1-4-1, given
he plays deeper then the other midfield players.
I was not advocating him playing any deeper then he currently plays.
To me it is more of a 3-5-2 then a 3-1-4-2, just that Gilberto plays deeper then the other midfielders.

It just drives me crazy watching us play 4-4-2 (or 4-1-3-2 dependng on where you put Gilberto in that formation) with Gilberto in the team (nothing against him personally, but any DM) when we are playing Sheff Utd at home, or Boro for that matter, when we know they will only operate with 1 offensive player.

We start off brightly run out of ideas and invaribly get sffocated in the middle as we are usually out numbered there.

I certainly wouldn't play a 3-5-2 against a Man U or Chelsea regardless of if we are at home or away.
But against a team like Sheff Utd, it could give us the attacking style to break them down, and given the personnel we have, it could be flexible to change into a 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 if need be.

Kel beat me to it, damm ;P

even a 3-5-2 wouldn't work well with our current squad, players like Hleb, Rosicky, Freddie or Walcott can never work as wingers in such a formation. Totally different skills and attributes are needed. And a 3-5-2 would force our wingers to stay glued to the sideline, a thing we all know they don't!
I can really enjoy a good 3-5-2 if there are great plaeyrs playing it, the demandss on such a winger is very high, good stamina, great defensive abilities (they have a whole side to defend by themselves!), good distributing and the ability to beat their man. Bad wingers in a 3-5-2 are often useless or fullbacks who end up forming a 5-3-2 formation.

As I stated before playing Gilberto allows the other midfielders and our fullbacks to have even more freedom when playign against weaker teams. To have another kinda player next to Cesc in a 4-4-2 that player could only be a box-to-box player of very high cailbre, an all round player almost equally good going both ways. His qualities must be damm near worldclass in both ways and the only plaeyr who could remotly work atm would be Stevie G

 

[SUPER_THEO_WALCOTT]

nah what we need because the emirates is a wider pitch we need this

--------------------------lehmann-----------------------
--eboue---------toure-----------gallas--------clichy--

----------hleb---------gilberto-----------fabregas--

--van.persie------adebayor------------henry-------

 

[Sane__]

RC8, with the three creative midfielders we're playing we're loosing the surprise/ counter-attack factor that favored us for so many seasons.

Hleb contributes to nothing playing where he's playing, he's just adding like 10 of the 40 useless passes we make around the box. He doesn't shoot from outside the box, he can't drible past the defenders. He deserves the bench. Baptista and RVP should be getting more minutes tho.

:roll:

 

[burnsjed]

I can really enjoy a good 3-5-2 if there are great plaeyrs playing it, the demandss on such a winger is very high, good stamina, great defensive abilities (they have a whole side to defend by themselves!), good distributing and the ability to beat their man. Bad wingers in a 3-5-2 are often useless or fullbacks who end up forming a 5-3-2 formation.

Ashley Cole would have been perfect in that position.
Clichy & Eboue might be able to fill in at that position in time, but it is too early, especially with Eboue, to determine that yet.

I think of all the 'wingers' we have Freddie is probably the best for that position, as he offers more defensively.

I still think we probably have the personnel to do this against the likes of Sheff Utd etc, but certainly not against better opposition, who are more likely to attack and therfore less likely to need that 3-5-2 formation against.