Will we ever win the league with Cesc leading this team?

[General]

Cesc obviously lacks the physical attributes to dominate a midfield like Vieira did so it's erroneous to suggest he has no shortcomings. It is saddening when even Robin, arguably the most naturally talented player we have, is placed amongst the mediocrity he’s surrounded with. Yes we’ve witnessed a drop in real quality in certain area since the unbeaten team was dismantled but this team also has its strengths and scored more goals than the 49ers.

Cesc dictates but never dominates and a diminutive frame will always come with defensive shortcomings. Without a midfield bully next to him, he simply can’t function at the optimum. We got a taste of the little and large combo with Vieira in 05/06 and Cesc was simply liberated. Denilson is all cute with little physical presence and Song is all power at reduced mobility. So Diaby, I think, will be the last throw of the dice.

 

[Rohit]

For the record, I feel that we can win the league this year.

Strangely, i feel the same. Basically i feel the league is stronger and the top four will be more suceptible to losing to others outside of it. It will be very open. I think we'll have a situation post christmas where all top four clubs are still in with a shout.

I will third that and i am also glad someone took the initiative so to say to make this thread because i have been thinking about it for some time now but didn't think the theory would find any takers.

Crappy team mates and all that but any belief i have of us winning the league title are based on Cesc finding a huge improvement. He isn't the best midfielder in the league in my opinion. He has shown previously that he has the ability to dominate games but he has never done it consistently and he isn't doing it now at all.

I believe Cesc's poor form has contributed most to our poor start to the season and not Wenger's economical approach in the transfer market. Again contrary to popular belief that we need everyone to play well for the team to tick i think we need Cesc to play well for this team to tick.

This team is built around his strengths and his qualities. He is the fulcrum of this team and when he is not on top of his game Arsenal are not on top of their game. I don't make much of his defensive ability or rather lack of it. The way this team is built we have to defend well as a team. We talk about a more pacier game with quick passing and movement, pace not only in terms of quickness in moving the ball but even pace on it.

Apart from Nasri, Theo, RvP and Denilson no one in our team really puts in any pace on the pass which automatically makes our game slower.

He is by no means a finished article. I don't think we can win the league with Cesc how he is but again the only way i think we can win the league is if he finds that bit extra which is missing in his game.

 

[Zico]

Rohit, you make a fair argument. What you have done is factored out changes in the team beyond Cesc, and looked at the issue from the point of view of deficiencies in Cesc's game that are holding the current team back.

The other perspective that I subscribe to is that the problem is not within Cesc, but lies in the lack of quality around him. I am a strong believer in putting excellent players together to create a great team, as the big European clubs constantly do. Put together good players is reinforcing - they help make each other better and make the game easier for their teammates by taking away attention and work from them. Right now, Cesc is burdened. When we had a healthy Cesc, Rosicky and Hleb in recent years, we were irresistible because the three men were interchangeable, making it harder for defenders to cut-off supply chains. The key is to empower Cesc by giving him help.

 

[Rohit]

I can't say i disagree Quincy and i am glad you simply didn't write off the arguement i was making either.

Again it might just be the difference between being patient and wanting trophies now. Cesc may not be surrounded by world class players but he has a lot of talent around him. I would subscribe completely to your theory if Cesc was a striker or winger may be. Cesc though is the heart and brain of this team. Actually the problem is he isn't but Wenger is trying to make him that. Every other part in the team responds to him.

If we debate who we miss more Vieira or Henry, i reckon the arguement for Vieira might win easily. Henry was a vital component of a world class team. Did we build a team around his strengths? I don't think so.

I might be wrong here and i may not be able to put this across very well but i don't think that Henry was bought for any other reason apart from his quality.

Adebayor, as good as he can be though, was bought to fit the style of play we had adopted to suit our to-be heart and brain of the team i.e. Cesc.

Cesc has a lot of talent around him. It is a huge burden for him. I watched United without Ronaldo and they did struggle. Ronaldo for whatever reason does give their play a lift.

I am looking at Cesc to lift this team not only by showing passion, determination, motivation but also through his football. Fact is the player we are building a team around hasn't really reached the level of quality and consistency mainly, that our football needs.

Everything needs to flow through Cesc and we will get the best out of RvP, Adebayor, Theo, Nasri, etc, whatever their best level is.

Look at our displays this season. I would say Theo and Denilson have been our most consistent performers. We have been let down by Adebayor, RvP, Cesc, Gallas. all the older heads on terms of experience.

A lot of it is down to Cesc not playing to his level though which in itself in my opinion is not good enough consistently for a title winning teams mmain midfielder.

 

[Biggus]

i guess what captain and i are curious about is whether this slowing of our pace is due to fabregas. for me, i think it's due to lower quality up top and out wide compared to our invincibles team.

How many of out present team would make the invincibles team?

Cesc, and then a few maybe's.

 

[GaelForce22]

i guess what captain and i are curious about is whether this slowing of our pace is due to fabregas. for me, i think it's due to lower quality up top and out wide compared to our invincibles team.

How many of out present team would make the invincibles team?

Cesc, and then a few maybe's.

Cesc, Sagna and possibly, possibly Walcott.

 

[Klaus Daimler]

To be fair, how many of the invincibles would you have thought would go through a season unbeaten at the time, though? It's not a entirely fair comparison. What made them so good was that they truly worked as a team in every aspect, and we're still a bit away from that. Quality wise I don't think that the current team is very far off at all.

 

[hackajack]

Cesc obviously lacks the physical attributes to dominate a midfield like Vieira did so it's erroneous to suggest he has no shortcomings.

Cesc dictates but never dominates and a diminutive frame will always come with defensive shortcomings. Without a midfield bully next to him, he simply can’t function at the optimum. We got a taste of the little and large combo with Vieira in 05/06 and Cesc was simply liberated. Denilson is all cute with little physical presence and Song is all power at reduced mobility. So Diaby, I think, will be the last throw of the dice.

Cesc dominates a midfield by passing in a way that Vieira never did (see Milan) and few players are capable of. But that was in the context of Flambo complementing him and doing the running and tackling. Diaby is an attacking mf, probably the worst partner of the three options you outline.

 

[asajoseph]

The invincibles had four players who were head and shoulders above any that we have at the moment - Sol Campbell, Patrick Vieira, Robert Pires, and Thierry Henry. In terms of talent, we have one or two right now who have the potential to reach the levels that those four managed to, but none performing with the same level of effectiveness now - and no, not even Cesc.

However, what we also saw last season was how far we can get so long as we function properly as a team, gel, and all pull together in the right direction, and though I think it will be some time before we ever assemble a collection of individuals that talented again, that doesn't mean we can't find the right balance from the players we are able to field.

 

[Klaus Daimler]

asa: Fully agree.

Also, I remember that the invincible season didn't start off THAT well. I was reading at the time about how people wanted a whole new team after the disgraceful United game that we almost lost because we clearly wasn't good enough. Opponents even printed up popular shirts to ridicule Wenger and his "I think we might get through this season unbeaten"-statement. Somewhere along the road we recognized what was wrong with the team and fixed it, to great results. It wasn't roses all the way.

 

[ricky1985]

I would take Sagna, Clichy, Fabregas and Walcott of our current team over their 'Invincible' equivalents. Toure included, for me that makes 5 players, which is obviously half a team, so not bad.

I agree with Asa though, Campbell, Vieira, Pires and Henry were probably the best players in their respective positions in the world at the time. We only currently have Fabregas that can even begin to claim a similar accolade. Although Sagna and Clichy are hopefully only a matter of time from that level.

 

[Zico]

If the invincibles are:
Lehmann, Cole, Campbell, Toure, Lauren, Vieira, Gilberto, Ljunberg, Pires, Bergkamp, Henry (i could be wrong), then I would only replace Gilberto with Fabregas.

Walcott currently has nothing over the effectiveness we got from Ljunberg in his prime. I think a lot of people think about the old, tired salary-stealing Ljunberg and forget that he was once the most frightening AM in England. I am indifferent about Lauren-Sagna. Elsewhere, the invincible players are better, although I would still get rid of Toure in either team.

 

[dos1986]

If the invincibles are:
Lehmann, Cole, Campbell, Touré, Lauren, Vieira, Gilberto, Ljunberg, Pires, Bergkamp, Henry (i could be wrong), then I would only replace Gilberto with Fabregas.

Walcott currently has nothing over the effectiveness we got from Ljunberg in his prime. I think a lot of people think about the old, tired salary-stealing Ljunberg and forget that he was once the most frightening AM in England. I am indifferent about Lauren-Sagna. Elsewhere, the invincible players are better, although I would still get rid of Touré in either team.

I agree with that, both Clichy and Sagna flatter to decieve really.They add little to the attack and while they are very good defensively, they dont come up with match winners like Cole and Lauren did.Cole isnt as good a dribbler as Clichy, but he got you a goal now and then, same with Lauren over Sagna.

Anyone that thinks Theo is better than a prime Freddie is crazy imo, Freddie had just the same devastating pace as Theo over 10 metres, but had more balls.If Henry had the half the balls of a young Freddie he would have been Pele.

Cesc gets in which says it all.

 

[asajoseph]

I think that assumes that Cesc could have formed a partnership with Vieira - whilst I'm open to the idea, it's worth remembering that at the time the two actually did play together, the consensus on this forum was that it was not a pairing that worked.

 

[hackajack]

I think that assumes that Cesc could have formed a partnership with Vieira - whilst I'm open to the idea, it's worth remembering that at the time the two actually did play together, the consensus on this forum was that it was not a pairing that worked.

Yeah but that was Mk II Vieira. The ideal is Mk I Vieira + Cesc .... PL kerching.

 

[General]

Cesc dominates a midfield by passing in a way that Vieira never did (see Milan) and few players are capable of. But that was in the context of Flambo complementing him and doing the running and tackling. Diaby is an attacking mf, probably the worst partner of the three options you outline.

In the context of the top tacklers in the PL last season, Flamini wasn't even in the top ten. He simply masked this brilliantly with his exceptional work rate and defensive discipline. Nigel Reo Coker executed nearly 3 times as many successful tackles as Flamini. And believe it or not Cesc actually won more tackles last season. He did compliment Cesc nevertheless and I honestly see no reason why a more talented Diaby can't. He regressed after the injury at Sunderland but he was brilliant in his maiden season playing centrally (when we were struggling for fourth) - something many people seem to conveniently ignore. I’ve already made the argument why I think, with some fine tuning, he could be the perfect foil for Cesc. His adventures on the wings should by no means be used to evaluate his capabilities centrally. You stick Cesc out wide and you’d most probably achieve a far worse effect.
The beautiful thing about Flamini was how he consistently executed his remit to the letter of the law.
Only time will tell whether Diaby can achieve the same discipline but he certainly has the talent.

 

[hackajack]

In the context of the top tacklers in the PL last season, Flamini wasn't even in the top ten. He simply masked this brilliantly with his exceptional work rate and defensive discipline. Nigel Reo Coker executed nearly 3 times as many successful tackles as Flamini. And believe it or not Cesc actually won more tackles last season.

Not more analysis from the headline stats again. I should Coco probably made more tackles since he played in a team that spent a lot more time defending, Fabregas did his share of defending but I reckon more of his were nicking the ball rather than winning physical tackles.

 

[General]

Tackling was by no means Flamini's strongest asset, especially when measured (tackle success ratio) against the Mascheranos and Essiens. He simply had an exceptional stamina and excellent positioning - More of an 'intercerptor' than a clean tackler to put it bluntly.

Fair point on Coker though but he is actually also one of the better tacklers in the league. And Cesc did win some physical tackles too. He probably should've been given his marching orders for that heavy challenge at West Ham last season. Dodgy execution similar to Paul Scholes.

 

[Rohit]

Agree completely General. I have said this before after Flmaini left and the effects of his departure were being discussed and no stats are required to prove this.

Flamini had great work rate. He was everywhere and last season he was where he should have been with the opposition in possession rather than being a headless chicken. He got in the opposition's faces when they had the ball, went shoulder to shoulder, won some lost some and bought a lot of time for our defence and midfield to get into shape by not allowing any space. He though wasn't a great tackler, he wasn't a ball winner who would win the ball cleanly and launch counter attacks. He didn't even win most shoulder to shoulder battles but credit where it is due, he was persistent, didn't simply go to the ground and had a lot of fight.

We haven't had a ball winner since Vieira left and it has hurt our game. Flamini wasn't a great tackler.

 

[qs]

i guess what captain and i are curious about is whether this slowing of our pace is due to fabregas. for me, i think it's due to lower quality up top and out wide compared to our invincibles team.

How many of out present team would make the invincibles team?

Cesc, and then a few maybe's.

Toure. :wink:

Clichy would give Cashley a run for his money. Sagna IMO is better than Lauren, just about. I think Nasri and Walcott have the potential to be better than Freddie.

We cant live in the past though. And we're all biased to that team, theres hardly a player in world football I'd put ahead of Henry, Bergkamp, Vieira, Pires, even Campbell from that season.