Will we ever win the league with Cesc leading this team?

[Captain]

I haven't really put much thought into constructing this thread, so there won't be a 1000 word essay to start us off.

Just looking for thoughts really.

Basically we haven't won anything since Cesc was given the team and the closest we have come is the champions league final (forgetting the Carling one for the moment) and the good league run last year.

Alot of discussion about the current lot revolves around getting the best out of Cesc but shouldn't we be wondering about what is the best for Arsenal FC?

Some people believe that Cesc needs 'a Vieira' next to him but in my opinion Cesc is supposed to be that player. Vieira was never a water carrier, he was the dominant partner who made things happen, which I'm assuming is what Cesc is supposed to be. If we put another one next to him, how will that balance the team?

How far do we go in waiting for his 'explosion of power' that Wenger mentioned a couple of years back? Or for his defensive game to improve (a point that he openly made about his ability after the last Spain game)?

Is cesc's inability to defend properly counter-prodcutive?

How about his lack of pace? we know it isn't when he has the ball but what about when he is chasing a winger back to the byline?

How exactly do we get the best from Cesc without sacrificing other players positives?

These for me are the key issues but feel free to throw in whatever you like. Please try to refrain from simply saying that Cesc is the best midfielder in the world and in our team; that's not really what the discussion is about but I'll try to make a clearer post once (and if) it gets going.

 

[USArsenal]

there's a couple simple answers...

1. its not Cesc's fault we havent won because..
2. Wenger has not addressed the biggest needs of the team (commanding CB and a box to box MF after Flams left)

we will never see the best of what Cesc should be unless we get someone who can clean up around him... and a CB who can get the ball out of the box when necessary is key for getting the ball back to Cesc to run things...

just my opinion...

 

[kamikaze80]

ideally, we need something more like early vieira to partner cesc rather than vieira mk II. someone who's a bit more defensive-oriented and can bring some power into the squad and kickstart counterattacks from midfield. however, it's a mistake to look back on past greats and try to find a like-for-like replacement. it just doesnt work that way.

but, in general, i think it would be a mistake to assign offensive/defensive roles to our CMs. of course, cesc is more dangerous in attack so his partner should be strong defensively to bring balance to our central midfield, but cesc also needs to drop back, receive the ball from defence and pull the strings from there. he can also make his late runs from midfield from there as well. just planting him in an attacking midfield role doesnt play to his strengths and it makes our attack more predictable because everyone's roles become regimented. our CM should be fluid and composed of two box-to-box CMs.

denilson is doing an okay job. i think our problem lies out wide, where we lack power, directness and aggression. compare our midfield to united's. they're not physically strong at CM, either, and cronaldo plays a similar wing forward/attacking midfield role as walcott. but they have more power in that rooney/tevez/cronaldo axis than we do with van persie/adebayor/nasri-eboue and thus transition more quickly from defence to attack and are much more penetrative as a result.

 

[law]

I think you underrate Cesc's defensive ability.

I think Cesc is currently among the top 5 players in the world and will be easily the best player of his generation. My question would be if he stays how could we not win things?

 

[GaelForce22]

Well after reading your post I wanted to say

its not Cesc's fault we havent won because Wenger has not addressed the biggest needs of the team (commanding CB and a box to box MF after Flams left)

we will never see the best of what Cesc should be unless we get someone who can clean up around him... and a CB who can get the ball out of the box when necessary is key for getting the ball back to Cesc to run things...

,

just planting him in an attacking midfield role doesnt play to his strengths and it makes our attack more predictable because everyone's roles become regimented. our CM should be fluid and composed of two box-to-box CMs.

denilson is doing an okay job. i think our problem lies in other places.

and

I think you underrate Cesc's defensive ability.

but it looks like I was beaten to it.

Think back to games were Cesc has had to defend, such as the Milan game last season and you will realise how much he has improved in that department.

He is clearly not one of the problems in our squad. Blaming him for our recent trophyless years is like blaming Kaka for Milan not winning Serie A for a few years.

 

[Alfonso]

Firstly, Cesc is not known for his defensive work as Vieria was not known for his pin-point accuarcy of passing, not that neither could not carry out their weaker skill reasonably. But it doesnt take anything away from them. Did'nt Wenger say its better for a player to be a master of one than a jack of all trades? (i.e concentrate on your stengths). Fabregas's lack of pace did not stop him from being the best player in the EPL for half a season last year. Even though Cesc is our best player we are not a one man team and other players have to help out in the defensive department, e.g. like Gilberto in 2006/2007.

Personally I dont think we will win the league again under Wenger but thats for another discussion. But if we want any chance of winning it then Cesc leading it is a must. The only player we have that scares opposition players when they see our teamsheet is Cesc, he is our only 'name/franchise' player if you like.

Simply put, Cesc is our best player and with him leading the team he has taken us to a CL final, Carling Cup final and 4 points off winning the league. You cant say dont mention these points just because it goes against your argument, these are big points in his favour in terms of this debate. Its like saying apart from having an affair with his secretary was Sven Goran Erickson a womaniser?

With Cesc its a case of other players working around him than the other way round, thats what you do with geniuses and Cesc is a genius and is probably the only player in the squad that is irreplaceable.

Captain has been against Cesc in the majority, I remember he stuck up for Frank Lampard of all people against Cesc following an incident 18 months ago. No surprise to see this thread at some point, great timing too as it coincides with Cesc's worst form since 2005.

The only valid criticism that I can think of against Cesc is has the European Champion victory changed him in a negative way, i.e. given him less motivation now that he is officially a champion?

Cesc is not Vieria's replacement. That was made clear since he replaced him in 2005/2006 in which Wenger changed the teams approach from a direct style to a more continental possession based game. If anything it was Flamini that was the Vieria replacement (remember Wenger's comments about how the big pitch of Emirates would suit him, possibly thinking ahead when he sold Vieria). Cesc is the only world class player that we have so I think we have to look at other factors that have stopped us from winning the league, such as poor management and pointless transitional periods. We saw last year with a proper partner what Cesc could do and how far he could help take us. Its not Cesc's fault he is playing with some muppets. Forget about skill set, but if all our players had the maturity, professionalism, mental stength and motivation of Cesc then we would be a lot better off.

You will only truely appreciate Cesc when he is gone, prob next summer. The only Arsenal player that I've ever know that is arguably a legend at 21.

 

[arsenalfc0719]

Fabregas needs to play next to a box to box player who is very strong defensively and who will take care of the 'dirty' work, giving Fabregas more freedom to come and go. Of course, this player would also have to know how to pass, and more importantly where and when, simple passes, but effective ones, tat get the ball to the players who should have it and not just to back to the CB's all the time. He would have to have it clear in his mind that its his job to get the ball to the players 'who know what to do with it', and that its not his job to create goals, chances etc. He'd have to composed on the ball, know his strengths and weaknesses and last but not least he'd have to be able run tirelessly thorughout a whole match.

Fabregas worked very well when he played along side both Flamini and Gilberto(both very different to Viera) two players that gave Fabregas all the freedom he needed to partake in our offensive play. Denilson is not that type of player, hes too much like Cesc, he likes to come forward, participate more in the final third, create chances, run the midfield etc. that only limits Fabregas.

I think there are 3 main reasons for Fabregas's poor form. 1)Hes off form, 2)Denilson and 3)Our lack of quality and creativity on the wings.

 

[kamikaze80]

haha so your reasons for fabregas' poor form are his poor form and the rest of the midfield sucks

 

[arsmile]

a nasri-cesc-denilson-rosicky midfield, all fit and in form- would (could?)dominate the league

cesc is good but not briliant in defence- and brilliant offensively, i'd describe denilson similarly- it is perhaps not the most natural partnership- but as 2 box-to-box midfielders i am very confident they can and will work well together.

cesc is out of form at the moment- but he is looking like he is getting more into the swing of things, there has been so much pressure on him to drag the team to victory so far this season- with nasri becoming more established, and denilson geting more used to consistant football- that should be enough- rosicky looks like he'll be out indefinitely- but between eboue, walcott, vela and a bischoff getting back fit again- we should be able to make that one other wing position contribute.

it's about getting cesc to lead the team and not drag the team- i also think that between him and denilson, thye have enough defensively.

i also think that we cannot afford to incorperate song into 90% of our league matches in DM, cos it means playing cesc further up frield, where he always has much less impact on the performance.- (it is similalry important that we dont have robin on the left wing for the same reason).

 

[famous no 10]

Surely the same could be argued about Ade, Rvp, Nasri, Clichy, Sagna, etc, etc...they all have their faults, they all have their strengths...but Cesc is not the reason we havn't won the title for a while, and he wouldn't solely be the reason when we do.

...and in any case, the guy, when on form, is utter class...reason enough to have him around, imo.

 

[Captain]

I think you underrate Cesc's defensive ability.

I think Cesc is currently among the top 5 players in the world and will be easily the best player of his generation. My question would be if he stays how could we not win things?

I don't. Cesc is defensively poor, he has improved in his three years but that fact still remains; he can't tackle, he can't head and he gets caught up the field quite often.

Him being in your top five players in the world is neither here nor there really but there are many players who could claim to be up there with ease, for example five from the premiership would be Essien, Ferdinand, Ronaldo, Gerrard, Mascherano. Three of those are central midfielders too.

Think back to games were Cesc has had to defend, such as the Milan game last season and you will realise how much he has improved in that department.

I'm thinking but I'm not seeing it somehow. You mean the second leg I assume? I remember a great team performance and Flamini having the game of his life.

No 'blame' is being placed.

Firstly, Cesc is not known for his defensive work as Vieira was not known for his pin-point accuarcy of passing, not that neither could not carry out their weaker skill reasonably. But it doesnt take anything away from them.

But which skill is more important in winning the weekly battle that is playing in central midfield in the premiership?

Simply put, Cesc is our best player and with him leading the team he has taken us to a CL final, Carling Cup final and 4 points off winning the league.

I seem to remember the form of Gilberto, lehmann and Toure taking us to the champions league final. The Carling cup is nothing really and the four point deficit kind of pales against the fact that we finished third.

You cant say dont mention these points just because it goes against your argument, these are big points in his favour in terms of this debate.

They really aren't. Henry was our best player for a time, but he was also the best for our team because his style perfectly fit to playing in the premiership and killing teams there. We didn't have to come up with some new fangled way to make him dominate games, his talents were already enough.

Captain has been against Cesc in the majority, I remember he stuck up for Frank Lampard of all people against Cesc following an incident 18 months ago.

Yes, I am against cesc because I disagreed with him losing his head. well done. :roll:

No surprise to see this thread at some point, great timing too as it coincides with Cesc's worst form since 2005.

no surprise at all, but if you must know, the basis of the thread is that every other discussion seems to revolve around how to make Cesc a star rather then what is best for this team, as I explicitly stated in the opening post.

Cesc is not Vieira's replacement.

Yes he is; he is our lead central midfielder and therefore has taken Vieira's 'role'.

Wenger changed the teams approach from a direct style to a more continental possession based game

That's more like it; so if we had a 'formula' to win the league, why did we crowbar Cesc into the team and change it. If Cesc is the cause of the change, will we ever win the league with him leading the team?

Its not Cesc's fault he is playing with some muppets. Forget about skill set, but if all our players had the maturity, professionalism, mental stength and motivation of Cesc then we would be a lot better off.

I thought a player couldn't really be that 'big' without performing in finals or something like that (your angle, not mine); when did Cesc's maturity and mental strength shine through in a final? Has it ever?

The only player we have that scares opposition players when they see our teamsheet is Cesc, he is our only 'name/franchise' player if you like.

Except for Adebayor and probably Walcott now.

 

[asajoseph]

We weren't far off the league last season, and none of the major reasons that we didn't win it were related to Cesc's defensive ability. Cesc is not such a limited, one dimensional player that there's only one system he can fit into, and only a set of very specific types of player that he can thrive alongside. Every team needs balance, of course, but the vagaries of temporary form aside, he is not one of the reasons this Arsenal team has not won anything for a few years.

However, I'd go so far as to say that I don't think we'll win the league again under Wenger unless he adopts a more pragmatic version of his current squad-building strategies. But I guess that's somewhat off-topic.

 

[awooga83]

I still felt and now more then ever last season was an illusion in that we had a good start that gave us momentum and led to us looking like we were closer to the title then we actually were which we have seen more realistically is not the case this season, even though we did lose some quality.

 

[Captain]

For the record, I feel that we can win the league this year.

 

[arsenalfc0719]

haha so your reasons for fabregas' poor form are his poor form and the rest of the midfield sucks

Yes, its a combination. Yes it is true that Fabregas could be playing better, even with the players that surround him, however, our mediocre midfield is only making him play worse, and is one of the reasons, among others, like not having a proper pre-season, that he hasn't been able to regain form.

 

[dos1986]

Cesc is only one man, so of course we can win the league with him starting in midfield alongside greats.

This team is well over rated, face it the likes of Almunia, Van Persie, Denilson, Theo and two small Centre Backs are just not premier league winning quality.You cant rely on guys like them to peform for 38 games.

Cesc isnt quite as good as the Vieira of 23, but he is very close.Its not his fault his team mates are of much lower quality.Vieira played with a peak Henry, Pires, Sol, Dennis ffs.

Who does Cesc have?

A bland Denilson, sprinter Theo, cant dribble Ade, awkward balls Van Persie and midget Centre Half's.

Cesc is a legend.

 

[Jasard]

Thanks Dos, you just killed any remaining hope I had!

 

[Captain]

Vieira had bland Gilberto, Sprinter Henry (because we know he wasn't a natural finisher :roll: ), can't dribble Ljungberg etc. and so on.

Pointless comments.

I thought there may actually be some good debate here in relation to Cesc's impact on the team and what it means to our style and it's relative ability to win the premiership but it's just a fanboy-fest as I half expected.

Cheers and Cesc is in no way a legend, actually maybe in his own mind.

 

[dos1986]

Vieira had bland Gilberto, Sprinter Henry (because we know he wasn't a natural finisher :roll: ), can't dribble Ljungberg etc. and so on.

Pointless comments.

I thought there may actually be some good debate here in relation to Cesc's impact on the team and what it means to our style and it's relative ability to win the premiership but it's just a fanboy-fest as I half expected.

Cheers and Cesc is in no way a legend, actually maybe in his own mind.

Gilberto was and still is a better premier league midfielder than Denilson, Henry was sensational from his first season on, Theo has been here years and done nothing, young Freddie was good.

I will put it this way, world class players in this team, Cesc.

That team Henry, Vieira, Pires, Sol.

Its kind of easy to see why Cesc isnt winning medals

 

[Captain]

cesc, ade, clichy, sagna and Gallas (despite the hate and current form) are world class> These are top class international players.

There are also a couple om the cusp.

I would add ashley cole to your list, at least for the unbeaten season.