Youri Tielemans

[2Smokeyy]

What stats favor Xhaka? You say Arsenal improved because of hidden influence Xhaka has on our performances. Where was that hidden influence when the last couple months of season 3 bottom half teams dominated our Partey less midfield? You want to give him credit for hidden influence when he came back but where was the hidden influence after Partey went down?

Apparently Xhaka being good and his hidden positive influence is like Dark Matter, no one can actually point to any empirical data in support of the existence of Dark matter. And Xhaka fans can’t produce one actual individual stat as to why they claim when Chaka plays there is this hidden Xhaka influence but no statistic that actually supports that.

You tie our performance to Xhaka, I want you to point to his individual stat areas he dominates that prove this hidden influence that doesn’t show up in his individual stats in any way. What is he good at? Stop giving him credit for the whole team’s performance just because he shows up and doesn’t botch the game with a brain fart.

It’s like when I say Tielemans is better you produce no stat other than Arsenal beat Leicester twice. It isn’t Arsenal v. Leicester we are comparing Xhaka the player vs. Tielemans the player

Check the last page and you can clearly see what I posted yet you seem to ignore that. So you use this Partey being rusty excuse below for “Thomas being poor early last year for a couple of months” your words, not mine which was the period we got dominated by teams like Brighton and Leicester but fail to give Xhaka any leeway. Agenda driven.

By the way Thomas was poor early last year for a couple of months after that he was brilliant. He even criticized himself and made the famous I’ve been a 4/10; he was rusty coming back from his niggles.

Wasn’t Partey playing against Crystal Palace towards the end of last season just like Xhaka, so why should he be exempt from criticism? Let’s actually look at the games towards the end of the season that Xhaka was “dominated in” as you said.

- Brighton (Home) - injured, so Lokonga started with ESR/Ødegaard.
- Southampton (Away) - I’m not shameless to use the “came back from injury” “rusty” excuse but he didn’t perform to his usual standard in this game. We looked toothless as a team.
- Chelsea (Away) - he bossed the midfield and was praised on here.
- Man Utd (Home) - he done really well in this game, he even managed to get on the scoresheet to top off a great performance.
- West Ham (Away) - him and Elneny surprised a lot of people at how they performed against A-M’s love child Declan Rice.
- Leeds (Home) - IIRC he had a decent game in this one.
- Tottenham (Away) - started off brightly but the game was lost as soon as Rob Holding lost his head.
- Newcastle (Home) - he was criticised accordingly by those who even back him which was fair.

That’s a fair representation of the run in and I think people are over exaggerating about how bad he was because nobody on here had any hope we’d even get through those Chelsea, Utd and West Ham with 9 points.

 

[2Smokeyy]

Spot on. I said multiple times that Tielemans may have some better qualities but he is not an upgrade on Xhaka. Not now and not in the future.

Seen him plenty to say he won't take Xhaka's spot and it means something knowing I don't rate Xhaka that much.

I’m not even against upgrading on both of our midfielders but it has to be upgrade worthy similar to Bruno Guimarães otherwise it doesn’t make any sense and we’ll be in a similar situation 6-12 months from now with these debates.

 

[2Smokeyy]

Simple both are poor defensively one guy is a luxury player who in his worst season for a dusted club still produced 10 goals created or scored in 32 matches, the other guy produces 3 for a better team. Maybe why our attack is anemic is that one of our supposed attack minded midfielders produced 3 goals last year. I’ll take goals and assists from a luxury player over pretty long switches to the wing any day and twice on Sunday. Does that make it make sense for you?

Xhaka is already on course to break that with 3 goal contributions in 3 games must be burning you from within whenever he gets a goal or assist.

Keep them coming, Granit.

 

[Farzad Stoned]

Check the last page and you can clearly see what I posted yet you seem to ignore that. So you use this Partey being rusty excuse below for “Thomas being poor early last year for a couple of months” your words, not mine which was the period we got dominated by teams like Brighton and Leicester but fail to give Xhaka any leeway. Agenda driven.



Wasn’t Partey playing against Crystal Palace towards the end of last season just like Xhaka, so why should he be exempt from criticism? Let’s actually look at the games towards the end of the season that Xhaka was “dominated in” as you said.

- Brighton (Home) - injured, so Lokonga started with ESR/Ødegaard.
- Southampton (Away) - I’m not shameless to use the “came back from injury” “rusty” excuse but he didn’t perform to his usual standard in this game. We looked toothless as a team.
- Chelsea (Away) - he bossed the midfield and was praised on here.
- Man Utd (Home) - he done really well in this game, he even managed to get on the scoresheet to top off a great performance.
- West Ham (Away) - him and Elneny surprised a lot of people at how they performed against A-M’s love child Declan Rice.
- Leeds (Home) - IIRC he had a decent game in this one.
- Tottenham (Away) - started off brightly but the game was lost as soon as Rob Holding lost his head.
- Newcastle (Home) - he was criticised accordingly by those who even back him which was fair.

That’s a fair representation of the run in and I think people are over exaggerating about how bad he was because nobody on here had any hope we’d even get through those Chelsea, Utd and West Ham with 9 points.

Fair enough on your last paragraph the part where you talk about Chelsea, United and West Ham he was good in those big matches. But again I keep asking you to provide an individual stat in favor of his performances vis a vis Partey or Tielemans or to favor him as a midfielder and you give him credit for teams performance. If the guy is an integral part of our attack and an attack minded midfielder his dominance for us should show up somewhere in his individual stats? I can’t see it, I can’t see what he dies or what he is hood that whenever the team plays well you say it is because of Xhaka. Please I don’t want to argue around each other what individual stats bolster this idea that Xhaka is our best midfielder and an attack minded midfielder? Stop giving me team results, what is he good at? Goals, assists, chances created, tackles, interceptions; this massive influence team should show up somewhere in his individual numbers no?

 

[Farzad Stoned]

I’m not even against upgrading on both of our midfielders but it has to be upgrade worthy similar to Bruno Guimarães otherwise it doesn’t make any sense and we’ll be in a similar situation 6-12 months from now with these debates.

Oh wow let me drop my knickers for him, if he is an attack minded midfielder like you guys claim let’s try to set the bar so low a Pygmy could hurdle it. Tielemans more than tripled his goal output in a season you guys claim was his worst ever, he lapped attack minded Xhak.

 

[2Smokeyy]

Fair enough on your last paragraph the part where you talk about Chelsea, United and West Ham he was good in those big matches. But again I keep asking you to provide an individual stat in favor of his performances vis a vis Partey or Tielemans or to favor him as a midfielder and you give him credit for teams performance. If the guy is an integral part of our attack and an attack minded midfielder his dominance for us should show up somewhere in his individual stats? I can’t see it, I can’t see what he dies or what he is hood that whenever the team plays well you say it is because of Xhaka. Please I don’t want to argue around each other what individual stats bolster this idea that Xhaka is our best midfielder and an attack minded midfielder? Stop giving me team results, what is he good at? Goals, assists, chances created, tackles, interceptions; this massive influence team should show up somewhere in his individual numbers no?

Why are you shifting the goalposts on every occasion? You asked me to answer the the below:

What stats favor Xhaka? You say Arsenal improved because of hidden influence Xhaka has on our performances. Where was that hidden influence when the last couple months of season 3 bottom half teams dominated our Partey less midfield?

Xhaka performed in the big games where many were rubbing their hands and expecting him to fail, there’s no doubting his mentality. If he’s not good at any particular quality as you’re suggesting then how was he getting the better of Rice, Neves, Tielemans, Kante (regularly does so) etc. To put that down to a “team performance” when he was and has been performing at an 8/10 standard in most of those games is a bit of an injustice, are you forgetting he was paired with Elneny who many on here see as a minus player yet they performed to a high standard.

Individual stats based on his position change and playing further up the pitch? Because his attacking stats have improved but I know you’ll say it’s “only 3 games into the season”. Ngl with that sort of logic, you sound more like a rival fan that spouts that BS about the season has only started and discrediting our good form.

Check the Xhaka thread for his excellent start to the season and you can see the influence he’s having thus far but he’s the “problem” as you say.

 

[2Smokeyy]

Oh wow let me drop my knickers for him, if he is an attack minded midfielder like you guys claim let’s try to set the bar so low a Pygmy could hurdle it. Tielemans more than tripled his goal output in a season you guys claim was his worst ever, he lapped attack minded Xhak.

More than tripled his goal output but Xhaka’s form to start this season is excluded and can’t be counted, right? As like you said, we’re only 3 games into the season and we played some “lower teams”

Even some of the biggest Xhaka haters on here are against us signing Tielemans as they don’t see how he’d fit in our midfield and not a significant upgrade on what we have. I’m certain you haven’t watched Tielemans properly if you’re fully using stats to back up your claims as anyone who has seen him can clearly see that him in this current Xhaka role would be a pointless signing.

 

[Farzad Stoned]

Individual stats based on his position change and playing further up the pitch? Because his attacking stats have improved but I know you’ll say it’s “only 3 games into the season”. Ngl with that sort of logic, you sound more like a rival fan that spouts that BS about the season has only started and discrediting our good form.

.

Why are you shifting the goalposts on every occasion? You asked me to answer the the below:

Lol. Moving goalposts and you claim there is no individual statement tgst can do Xhaka's

Why are you shifting the goalposts on every occasion? You asked me to answer the the below:



Individual stats based on his position change and playing further up the pitch? Because his attacking stats have improved but I know you’ll say it’s “only 3 games into the season”. Ngl with that sort of logic, you sound more like a rival fan that spouts that BS about the season has only started and discrediting our good form.

Lol. Nice dodge you talk about moving the goalposts. I spent paragraphs pleading with you for individual stats that prove his massive positive influence for the team. Let me make it easy for you, give me any couple of individual stats offensively or defensively that favors Xhaka and causes this massive positive influence on our play. No more dodges saying his individual stats don’t matter if team plays well dodge, where does Xhaka the midfield giants influence show up in his individual stats?

 

[Farzad Stoned]

Individual stats based on his position change and playing further up the pitch? Because his attacking stats have improved but I know you’ll say it’s “only 3 games into the season”. Ngl with that sort of logic, you sound more like a rival fan that spouts that BS about the season has only started and discrediting our good form.

Lol. Nice dodge you talk about moving the goalposts. I spent paragraphs pleading with you for individual stats that prove his massive positive influence for the team. Let me make it easy for you, give me any couple of individual stats offensively or defensively that favors Xhaka and causes this massive positive influence on our play. No more dodges saying his individual stats don’t matter if team plays well dodge, or don’t matter because he changed position where does Xhaka the midfield giants influence show up in his individual stats?

 

[Farzad Stoned]

More than tripled his goal output but Xhaka’s form to start this season is excluded and can’t be counted, right? As like you said, we’re only 3 games into the season and we played some “lower teams”

Even some of the biggest Xhaka haters on here are against us signing Tielemans as they don’t see how he’d fit in our midfield and not a significant upgrade on what we have. I’m certain you haven’t watched Tielemans properly if you’re fully using stats to back up your claims as anyone who has seen him can clearly see that him in this current Xhaka role would be a pointless signing.

Three matches doesn’t eliminate 6 years for me of subpar play.

 

[MauveGunner]

People thinking Tielemans would thive better than Xhaka in midfield w/o Partey covering his back will be in for a shock. He isn't that much better defensively than Xhaka.

 

[ASAP Berg]

I think the best team have a player in the middle who can turn, use body feints to lose opponents and then have the acceleration to burst into the space over short distances.

City with Bernardo
Liverpool with Thiago
Barcelona with Pedri and De Jong
Madrid with Modric

Our midfield three are so slow, both Xhaka and Ødegaard have no acceleration. Partey can, but he's proven to be so inconsistent. Most games he gives away sloppy passes. I'm not sure a player of Tielemans profile will really solve this, but, it probably the best we can do at this stage of the window.

I’m also worried about Tielemans because means another midfielder who can’t carry the ball to progress. Would almost rather just develop ESR in this position, he can carry the ball, good in attacking positions but needs to work defensively and with passing,

 

[2Smokeyy]

Lol. Nice dodge you talk about moving the goalposts. I spent paragraphs pleading with you for individual stats that prove his massive positive influence for the team. Let me make it easy for you, give me any couple of individual stats offensively or defensively that favors Xhaka and causes this massive positive influence on our play. No more dodges saying his individual stats don’t matter if team plays well dodge, or don’t matter because he changed position where does Xhaka the midfield giants influence show up in his individual stats?

Nice dodge? You’ve been dodging my initial question right from the beginning regarding our upturn in form since the 6th December 2021, you didn’t care to explain what was the reason for that? Why should I even bother respond to your question about “individual stats” when you completely shifted the debate from that to looking at like for like stats to compare. His influence was shown when he returned to the side last season but you’re too blinded by your hate for him that you can’t see it.

 

[2Smokeyy]

Three matches doesn’t eliminate 6 years for me of subpar play.

I disagree, he wouldn’t have lasted and seen as key player under AW, Emery and especially Arteta who has been ruthless had he been some scrub as you’re suggesting but the way you see it, every excellent Xhaka performance is down to the team and Partey one is he’s carrying the team with his third leg. I can already see the “he played good for one season, what happened to the rest of the time he’s been here” excuse being used

Since this seems to be going around in circles and good luck to you with your hate for Xhaka this season. It looks like it’s going well thus far, so keep all that pain under that mask you’re wearing.

Roll on Fulham.

 

[Farzad Stoned]

Nice dodge? You’ve been dodging my initial question right from the beginning regarding our upturn in form since the 6th December 2021, you didn’t care to explain what was the reason for that? Why should I even bother respond to your question about “individual stats” when you completely shifted the debate from that to looking at like for like stats to compare. His influence was shown when he returned to the side last season but you’re too blinded by your hate for him that you can’t see it.

You know why you won't use the hard data of a single individual stat that proves your conclusion that he is the big reason we win whenever he plays and doesn't have a meltdown? It is very simple this hidden influence of Xhaka is just that hidden from everyone except his supporters on this thread and not supported by his God awful numbers. If you want to talk hidden influence we haven't been in CL since Xhaka started starring in our midfield. And you continue your artful dodger routine of not providing a couple of individual stats that support your conclusion; despite me asking nicely over and over. It's simple you won't answer because his individual numbers in totality do not support your conclusions

 

[Farzad Stoned]

I disagree, he wouldn’t have lasted and seen as key player under AW, Emery and especially Arteta who has been ruthless had he been some scrub as you’re suggesting but the way you see it, every excellent Xhaka performance is down to the team and Partey one is he’s carrying the team with his third leg. I can already see the “he played good for one season, what happened to the rest of the time he’s been here” excuse being used

Since this seems to be going around in circles and good luck to you with your hate for Xhaka this season. It looks like it’s going well thus far, so keep all that pain under that mask you’re wearing.

Roll on Fulham.

I dont even know what to say I could say you got a pro Xhaka agenda or an Anti-Partey agenda. I don't do that I go buy the data you refuse to address and it tells me he isn't good enough to start, i dont say freeze him out but he is a squad player at best on an elite team. If anyone is running emotion based and agenda driven arguments on this discussion it is you

 

[Farzad Stoned]

People thinking Tielemans would thive better than Xhaka in midfield w/o Partey covering his back will be in for a shock. He isn't that much better defensively than Xhaka.

Still is better and quicker.

 

[ArsenalInMyHeart]

 

[OnlyOne]

@2Smokeyy what did I tell you about sleeping being the most important part of a healthy lifestyle? Why are you posting at 2:30am and 7:00am?

 

[MauveGunner]

Still is better and quicker.

The current Xhaka is better than Tielemans tho. He's been pretty bad over the past year. At Leicester and most of the matches in Belgium. If he come here, he'll have to put up a lot of work and prove he'll be an improvement. If he reaches his level, I'm sure he will. But, as Xhaka, he needs someone to watch his back.