Abdou Diallo

[dashsnow17]

Also he's young and playing at a smaller side. To have a passing accuracy of 77% really isn't that bad. Koulibaly's % was in the 70's when he was at Genk, Koscielny's was also in the 70's when he was at Lorient & Bailly's was 76% at Villareal and then shot up to 85% at Utd.

So I wouldn't be concerned at all about his passing. He'd complete more passes in a better passing team.

 

[Aevi]

Comparing him to our own young defenders and Uduokha, he has pretty strong stats across the board. His pass completion is rather low, but that could be attributed to Mainz's poor team performances and/or his higher passing length.

Holding looks very strong as well, but Chambers's numbers are significantly lower than the rest. He has a small sample of games, but even so, it's pretty damning. It's not as if he's performing much better than Holding at retaining the ball and such to make up for it, which I thought was the case.

 

[Slartibartfast]

From what I gather he's not a bad passer but he's also not perhaps the prototypical modern ball-playing CB. The other guy we were linked to, Felix Uduokhai, fits that mould much more.

I don't particularly care that much though or see it as a bad thing. I'd rather he was just a good defender first of all, he looks to have all the basic defensive stats locked down: 2.7 aerial duals p/g, 2.4 tackles p/g, 2.7 interceptions p/g & 2.0 clearances p/g.

A defense-first defender definitely isn't a bad thing. It's why they're called defenders. Might be nice to have one guy who could focus mostly on that part of the game.

 

[dashsnow17]

Comparing him to our own young defenders and Uduokha, he has pretty strong stats across the board. His pass completion is rather low, but that could be attributed to Mainz's poor team performances and/or his higher passing length.

Holding looks very strong as well, but Chambers's numbers are significantly lower than the rest. He has a small sample of games, but even so, it's pretty damning. It's not as if he's performing much better than Holding at retaining the ball and such to make up for it, which I thought was the case.

Uduokhai's stats also very good. Sven knows what he's on about. Who knew?

 

[berric]

Holding has nice stats tbh.

 

[Aevi]

Uduokhai's stats also very good. Sven knows what he's on about. Who knew?

Yeah, he has the best stats of the lot. Going by them, I think it goes Uduokhai > Holding > Diallo > Chambers.

Of course you need more than stats to make judgements though to get the whole story.

 

[CurryFlavoured]

Yeah, he has the best stats of the lot. Going by them, I think it goes Uduokhai > Holding > Diallo > Chambers.

Of course you need more than stats to make judgements though to get the whole story.

Not trying to be a **** but the stats don't mean a lot. For one, the sample size for Chambers and Holding is about a 1/3rd of the other two guys.

I think for defenders in particular you really need to watch them to build an opinion. One important part about being a defender is being solid and keeping mistakes to a minimum. That's much more important than pass completion, key passes, fouls etc.

Defenders at weaker teams will always have generally blocks/interceptions because they play on the back foot. Defenders at Arsenal will have more passes than most teams because of the way we play. They don't really reflect their ability.

 

[dashsnow17]

Yeah, he has the best stats of the lot. Going by them, I think it goes Uduokhai > Holding > Diallo > Chambers.

Of course you need more than stats to make judgements though to get the whole story.

Yes very much so, stats only get you so far. But I think the truth is probably that all four of them, Mavropanos too actually, should probably be playing regular football at a club smaller than Arsenal. Holding especially I think should be playing every week for a club like Bournemouth for example.

At the age of 20/21 a CB should just be playing somewhere, which is exactly why Diallo left for Mainz.

I've no problem bringing a young CB in, but I think it should be in tandem with the others going out on loan. Having a stockpile of young CBs with potential who aren't playing much doesn't do any one any good.

 

[Aevi]

Not trying to be a **** but the stats don't mean a lot. For one, the sample size for Chambers and Holding is about a 1/3rd of the other two guys.

I think for defenders in particular you really need to watch them to build an opinion. One important part about being a defender is being solid and keeping mistakes to a minimum. That's much more important than pass completion, key passes, fouls etc.

Defenders at weaker teams will always have generally blocks/interceptions because they play on the back foot. Defenders at Arsenal will have more passes than most teams because of the way we play. They don't really reflect their ability.

I agree, I mentioned those things in the two posts. Of course those stats should be taken with a grain of salt (especially for defenders as you said), but they're still nice to look at to get a sense of what players are like. Diallo and Uduokhai are difficult to get a reading of otherwise because there is little footage of them online.

 

[SingmeasongSong]

Comparing him to our own young defenders and Uduokha, he has pretty strong stats across the board. His pass completion is rather low, but that could be attributed to Mainz's poor team performances and/or his higher passing length.

Holding looks very strong as well, but Chambers's numbers are significantly lower than the rest. He has a small sample of games, but even so, it's pretty damning. It's not as if he's performing much better than Holding at retaining the ball and such to make up for it, which I thought was the case.

Still makes me feel like a totally incomplete stats metric which ain't showing the full picture.

What about positional play and being outplayed without getting into tackles and such at all ?

We've been full of holes within the back line with Chambers and Holding on the field - not saying they don't have potential, but they have been pretty bad in the recent past.

 

[field442]

Still makes me feel like a totally incomplete stats metric which ain't showing the full picture.

What about positional play and being outplayed without getting into tackles and such at all ?

We've been full of holes within the back line with Chambers and Holding on the field - not saying they don't have potential, but they have been pretty bad in the recent past.

Yep. Those kind of stat things are ultimately pointless.

 

[Dokaka]

Stats for CBs are generally worthless. So much of it relies on the team setup, and on top of that there's not a reliable way of translating positional awareness and the ability to make the right decision into stats, arguably the two most important aspects of defending.

It's even difficult to do in the most stat-friendly sports, so doing it in football -- a sport that is already difficult to use blanket stats in - seems like a waste of time, honestly.

 

[CurryFlavoured]

As a centre back at Arsenal now, I think you need to be a very good athlete or at least have a very good athlete alongside you. We obviously play a very open game, and the reason why Kos was so successful was because he was so quick and powerful. 2 years ago, if you put him in a 1 v 1 with your average striker he would win 9 times out of 10. Likewise the reason for his drop in form is that he's lost a yard with age/injuries. Right now, we don't have anyone like that who can dominate a striker physically. That's what I'd be looking for alongside other qualities - tackling, aerial ability, positioning. Passing ability should fall way down the list.

At the same time, this is a bit of a moot point because I'd much rather we didn't play such an open game where our defenders need to have crazy recovery pace.

 

[Dokaka]

As a centre back at Arsenal now, I think you need to be a very good athlete or at least have a very good athlete alongside you. We obviously play a very open game, and the reason why Kos was so successful was because he was so quick and powerful. 2 years ago, if you put him in a 1 v 1 with your average striker he would win 9 times out of 10. Likewise the reason for his drop in form is that he's lost a yard with age/injuries. Right now, we don't have anyone like that who can dominate a striker physically. That's what I'd be looking for alongside other qualities - tackling, aerial ability, positioning. Passing ability should fall way down the list.

At the same time, this is a bit of a moot point because I'd much rather we didn't play such an open game where our defenders need to have crazy recovery pace.

Agreed. Think we can all agree that you're a bit of a mess positionally on defense, and being quick at least gives you a chance to recover.

Says a lot about Mertesacker's intelligence on the pitch that he managed to play for Arsenal without looking utterly hopeless. Absolutely brilliant defender, ironically held back by his massive frame I think.

 

[dashsnow17]

As a centre back at Arsenal now, I think you need to be a very good athlete or at least have a very good athlete alongside you. We obviously play a very open game, and the reason why Kos was so successful was because he was so quick and powerful. 2 years ago, if you put him in a 1 v 1 with your average striker he would win 9 times out of 10. Likewise the reason for his drop in form is that he's lost a yard with age/injuries. Right now, we don't have anyone like that who can dominate a striker physically. That's what I'd be looking for alongside other qualities - tackling, aerial ability, positioning. Passing ability should fall way down the list.

At the same time, this is a bit of a moot point because I'd much rather we didn't play such an open game where our defenders need to have crazy recovery pace.

I agree recovery pace is unusually crucial at Arsenal and that's what made Kos so good, but I think Mustafi can also dominate a striker physically; he's no slouch. I just think we need someone to partner Mustafi once Kos starts to fade i.e from next season.

I don't quite know what the strategy is with our CBs, especially if someone like Diallo were to come. That would be 4 young CBs, are we just throwing enough mud at the wall until some of it sticks?

I'm all for having these young CBs on our books, but I think only one or two of them should be in the squad at any given time while the rest should be playing regularly out on loan. Surely the only reason to have them is that they might be really good one day, but they'll only be really good if they can get minutes on the pitch.

Christensen is the model example. Having him in the Chelsea squad only got him so far, but playing 80+ games at Monchengladbach over two seasons got him to the stage where he could play in the first XI at Chelsea.

Anyway, alls I know is that it's definitely time Holding had a loan. He needs minutes.

 

[dashsnow17]

@Dokaka any room in the Hammers back line for Holding?

 

[Dokaka]

@Dokaka any room in the Hammers back line for Holding?

Only if it was a permanent deal. Reid's form has been sliding in recent months and we play 3 at the back, so we're probably int he hunt for a new CB.

Generally not a fan of loaning defenders without an option to buy as it's all about developing partnerships and understanding each other. It's like a year of work wasted when the player returns home.

 

[CurryFlavoured]

@dashsnow17

I think that Mustafi was bought as his successor, but for me he's a poor man's Koscielny. He's not as quick or as strong. Kos was weirdly strong for a guy with such a skinny frame.

Mustafi is also rash in the tackle and makes too many critical errors. For me, he's been 5/10 so far.

 

[dashsnow17]

@dashsnow17

I think that Mustafi was bought as his successor, but for me he's a poor man's Koscielny. He's not as quick or as strong. Kos was weirdly strong for a guy with such a skinny frame.

Mustafi is also rash in the tackle and makes too many critical errors. For me, he's been 5/10 so far.

Nah I think you're underrating Mustafi a bit there. I totally agree he's rash and he makes errors, but so did Kos for a long time. I think they're both players who just occasionally have a mistake in them.

Also if i'm correct Kos came to Arsenal at the age Mustafi is now. But because Kos came from Lorient perhaps people were more forgiving of him, while Mustafi they see as more experienced so they criticise more. I don't see it that way, yes Mustafi is experienced for his age but he's still a young CB. I don't understand why more people aren't happy to have him; for his age he's really good and I think he'll improve much more.

I agree though that I see Mustafi as Kos' successor. Now it's just about finding Per's replacement. I'll be honest I don't know who that is or should be.

 

[CurryFlavoured]

@dashsnow17

From the 18 months I've seen, Mustafi isn't very good. Barring a big improvement I don't that he should be a starting centre back here. He makes noticeable mistakes nearly every week, and as a defender he doesn't have any standout qualities. Maybe he'll improve but if he doesn't we'll see a similarly leaky defence in future. Our defence in the last 18 months has hit a new low - while that doesn't all fall on his shoulders he certainly hasn't helped it.