Ex-Gunner Watch

[Uncle Mike]

Sp**s will sign him, so obvious.

If the Twitch was still managing them, I would agree. But now, I don't think so. I think Levy will hire a manager who will have to do more with less, which will make Sp**s a lot less attractive to Flamini.

Unless he pulls an Andre Dawson. For 10 years, Dawson was a sensational baseball player for the Montreal Expos, but his contract ran out during the time of the Great Collusion, when the owners of the Major League Baseball teams agreed to simply not sign any big-money free agents -- a can of worms whose true implications are irrelevant here. As a result, no one was willing to offer Dawson a big contract. Their excuse? Injuries. His knees had been hammered by the awful turf at the Montreal Olympic Stadium. So he went to the Chicago Cubs, whose Wrigley Field is a classic old ballpark with real grass and passionate fans, and said, "I'll take any offer you give me for the first season, and we'll talk again afterward." He made $3 million in his last year in Montreal. The Cubs offered him $500,000, with an extra $250,000 in incentives, a massive cut and a slap in the face. But what else could he do? He signed.

Result? Well, the Cubs stunk, but Dawson put up a fantastic season that got him, in spite of his team's awful performance, the National League's Most Valuable Player award. They gave him a raise to $1.85 million, and later topped out at $4.875 million. He's in the Baseball Hall of Fame. As for the Expos, the team that let him go? They don't even exist anymore, having been moved to Washington.

Running a sports team and running a government don't have much in common, but there is one thing, which even Mike Ashley seemed to have figured out: Austerity doesn't work. Which means the idea of Sp**s attracting new talent -- whether Flamini or Vertonghen -- is less likely than at any time since the abolition of the maximum wage (itself a collusion).

 

[pet]

Non-league Wembley FC have recruited former internationals Ray Parlour, Martin Keown, Graeme Le Saux, Claudio Caniggia and Brian McBride to play in their FA Cup campaign this season.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18534739" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18534739</a>" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

interesting

 

[DJ_Markstar]

.

 

[yuvken]

This place is fun! Beats cronaldo crying over his near misses.

FIrst - Flamoney. Unlike the Cesc debate, there's no two ways about it: you just gotta laugh at the greedy,
Self overrating, ridiculous cvnt that he is. No two ways as the "dream to play Milan", if indeed he had such burning passion, cannot constitute anything close to Cesc's (grew up and played there, his whole life is there, and, errr, they were a better team). All Fmoney had was half a season playing well, much thanx to cesc, AW and the club, and he was holding us for ransome. You expect me to not be happy it all went wrong for him? I wouldn't be able to tolerate it if he succeeded (and, I must say, I have no such problems with cesc). Another one to the Petit, Anelka, Hleb list, just where he belongs - the ***** parade.

Dok - I assume you were joking, but the context is all wrong: this is not an Arsenal player we were in two minds about, or simply against. Fred was done here, we all loved him then and wished him all the best wherever he went. H e belongs with Winteburn, if you will.

Are the czechs ever bringing Rozza on?

Let's talk about cesc a bit. First, I read future hero's story, and I thought I recognized the narrative, but too much needs more firm ground (you don't want to be nicknamed future hearsay ). But then Ithink calling him (ah, they finally scored... I don't like him, but he's a real player) just for that is missing something, and to add insult to injury, some are pretending the problem doesn't even exist. Well, there is a problem, and it resides in what professional and loyal really mean, how they come together or contradict, and how integrity can come into play in both respects.

Thing is, it seems hard for us, as fans who support both the club and the people playing in it, to accept that the players may even have contradicting goals or values. And when these are manifested, we take whatever we want to color our claim: hand in the air - coward, not showing loyalty, no wonder he left (8 years leading us to battle? Irrelevant). And from the opposing side, a change of heart, or indeed a change of position is down played (Phil: vieira? Really? He's head of football operations/aquisions or whatever for Manc, wasn't he doing his job? Or we expect them to not be against us for a lifetime, otherwise it proves their heart wasn't in it to begin with?)

Cesc, to me, was fantastic as long as he was here. At some point he clearly had a change of heart, and to make things harder, it didn't actually happen at a certain "point", though it was clear to see when it became crucial (which is also when he left). I can also understand how his inner struggle was inevitable, thus, hot Arsenal fan that I am, still I'm not among those looking for his fall. I'm happy he played here, and I accept things are more complicated than "loyal" means forever and with no boundaries, or that "professional" essentially entails that interpretation of loyal. I also accept one's integrity relates both to the professional aspect, as the personal.

But, f*** me, try as I may, I can't find any trace of "integrity" where Fmoney is concerned. Closed circle.

 

[SomGooner]

.

You don't say! Really? When? That's shocking to say the least.

 

[AFC-Phil]

(Phil: vieira? Really? He's head of football operations/aquisions or whatever for Manc, wasn't he doing his job? Or we expect them to not be against us for a lifetime, otherwise it proves their heart wasn't in it to begin with?)

In equal measure, you could take his mistake as being the act of joining Man City. He's certainly 'tainted' his legacy to some as a result of his role there, and consequently in aiding players to leave us.

 

[future heroes]

Won't have to go much further back than 09/10.

In that fairly weak team, Fabregas scored 19 goals, made 19 assists and was your top-scorer while still controlling the midfield.

Seriously don't think you cannot agree that he carried the entire team that season, he was phenomenal. Better than RVP was this season, easily.

Fabregas was very effective in 2009/2010. It is fair enough to say that he dragged us in many games when he played (71 % of the league games). However, I asked about what seasonS (plural) Fabregas dragged us to CL singlehandedly (something DJ_Markstar claimed Fabregas did). Fabregas was very good, but is surreal to read that Fabregas was better in 2009/2010 than van Persie in 2011/2012:

Results in big games with Fabregas in 2009/2010
City A 2-4
Tottenham H 3-0, Absolutely brilliant solo goal by Fabregas. Fantastis stuff.
Chelsea H 0-3
Liverpool A 2-1, Fabregas assisted Arshavin's match-winning goal with a great cross.
United H 1-3
Chelsea A 0-2
Liverpool H 1-0, Fabregas should have received his second yellow card for blocking the ball with his arm when standing in the wall (see the picture on the previous page).
Barcelona H 2-2, Passionate performance by Fabregas. He won a penalty that he converted to make it 2-2.

Fabregas played as a SS. Fabregas had 19 goals and 19 assists in 2009/2010. In the 8 big games above, Fabregas had 2 goals and 1 assist. Fabregas failed to show up in many big games domestically. Now let us compare that with van Persie's performances in 2011/2012. Many people would say that Arsenal's squad in 2011/2012 was the worst under Wenger.

Results in big games with van Persie in 2011/2012
Liverpool H 0-2
United A 2-8, van Persie missed a penalty at a vital moment but scored a consolation goal.
Tottenham A, 1-2
Chelsea A 5-3, van Persie scored 3 goals and assisted Walcott's bizarre goal.
City A 0-1
United H 1-2, van Persie scored the equalizer with a great finish.
Milan A 0-4
Tottenham H 5-2, van Persie scored the 2-2 equalizer out of nowhere on his own and assisted a goal for Walcott.
Liverpool A 2-1, van Persie scored 2 goals with a header and a fantastic volley.
Milan H 3-0, van Persie converted a penalty
City H 1-0
Chelsea A 0-0

van Persie played as a CF. van Persie had 37 goals and 11 assists in 2011/2012. In the 12 big games above, van Persie had 9 goals and 2 assists. van Persie won us several big games with fantastic goals. van Persie made the difference against all types of opposition including top teams.

Then there was the 07/08 season where he basically made Adebayor a star. Fabregas was an assist machine that season, making 23 assist while still scoring 13 goals. That was probably your weakest team in a long time as well, and the fact that Adebayor managed to score 30 goals says it all.

redwhiteAustrian and mo50 have written what I wanted to say about the 2007/2008. That was our best and most balanced team since moving from Highbury.
Regarding Adebayor he scored 24 PL goals in 36 matches for Arsenal in 2007/2008 (0.67 goals per game) whereas he scored 17 PL goals in 33 matches for Tottenham in 2011/2012 (0.51 goals per game). Since he played in a better team in 2007/2008 I would not say that the difference is that big. Fabregas made Adebayor better, but he did not suddenly became crap when he did not play with Fabregas. With Adebayor it is mainly about whether or not he is motivated.

Fabregas is without a doubt one of the best players to have played for Arsenal FC in recent times. He easily rivals the likes of Pires and Vieira and hadn't he left on somewhat bad terms and stayed, he'd have become a club legend.

Fabregas was one of the best contemporary offensive players in the world. He was still nowhere near the player Vieira was for us. Vieira was a complete once in a lifetime-midfielder for a club like Arsenal. Fabregas would obviously had become a legend if he stayed and spent his whole career at Arsenal. I mainly despise Fabregas because he fvcked the club over by leaving on very bad terms. If Fabregas would have left in a normal way in 2010 for £50-60M - then I would have respected him, thanked him for his service and wished him all the best in the future.

I can't believe future heroes mentioned those hand ball incidents like it was a big deal. Talk about clutching at straws.

To me it was a big deal. It was mentioned to counter the opinion that Fabregas was a warrior. In my opinion you are not a warrior if you repeatedly raise your arms when standing in the wall. Fabregas was only a warrior when it suited him and he felt like fighting. After all he was the player who got wound up and whined when the opposite team parked the bus against us.

We shouldn't rewrite history now that he's left. I would've liked to earn more money for him, in fact, I think for a player of his age, talent, contract length and pedigree, we should've received double what we actually got. Our management is to blame for getting bent over so easily.

You do not get £60M when the player is desperate to leave for one club only and then make himself impossible at the club he is contracted at. If Fabregas would have shown some sympathy for the club that made him a superstar, he would not have played the dirty transfer game and we would have received at least £50M, his true transfer value the summer he left. That would not have changed my assesment of him as a player, but to me he would have left on good terms.

 

[future heroes]

Nasri was hated on for various reasons.

I can understand why Nasri is hated, but he left on good terms as a professional player. He respected his contract when he played against Liverpool and he was sold on an open market to the highest bidder. The beef was initiated by childish Arsenal fans who started to abuse Nasri. He then sank to the same very low level himself.

One - His hypocrisy. Two - He has inferred that Arsenal aren't a big club. Three - The view that he moved for money. Four - He jumped ship after being a passenger for years at the first sign of good form. Five - He bottled it when it mattered here and still acts like 'a big time Charlie.' Six - He's talked non-stop about the club and fans in a negative fashion after leaving. Seven - He's been reasonably poor for ****ty, yet paraded the PL title win as if he was Aguero. I'm sure I've missed some, but they're the ones off the top of my head.

Much of it these reasons just picture things that happened after he left.
1. Nasri was a hypocrite but so was Fabregas who told arsenal.com that he could stay his whole career at Arsenal in November 2009, and then said "it is not up to me anymore" about his future club career in May 2010.
2. We are a big club traditonally but we have not won a title since 2005.
3. Debatable. Strange to use that against a player who played 31 PL games for a team that just won the PL title.
4. Agreed.
5. Agreed but he was played out of position on his unfavoured side to accomodate Walcott when it mattered in 2010/2011.
6. Agreed and Fabregas has also questioned Arsenal plus Wenger in interviews since leaving the club. I just don't understand why some ex-players can not keep their mouth shut. Both players could learn from Clichy.
7. Debatable. He was no David Silva but he contributed to the title with some decisive goals. Any player that wins the title would celebrate like that and it is childish to use that against him.

Don't throw statements out there like that without proof. Care to provide evidence?

Wenger declared Fabregas injury free at the press conference prior to the Benfica pre-season friendly. Fabregas magically became fit as soon as he signed for Barceona. Fabregas signed a contract until 2015 but did not respect it and forced his transfer against Wenger's wish. Nasri was also on his way out of the club but played in pre season and against Liverpool. Can you provide evidence that Fabregas did not refuse to play for Arsenal?

That's certainly a bias interpretation to say the least. He could equally be pointing out that Wenger has the choice (Funnily enough, just as he gave Wenger the choice in 2010 and Wenger told him - you're staying). Cesc did and played out another season without a bad word.

No, really not. This is probably where we disagree the most. After the two interviews Fabregas gave in May 20100 (with Marca on May 12 "I would only play for Barcelona if I leave Arsenal" and the pre World Cup interview "it is not up to me anymore") I realised that he soon would be off. If Fabregas really was committed he would have come out with a statement like "My future belongs to Arsenal, and it is the truth" (a statement by Fabregas published on arsenal.com on April 19 2008) or something similar. Instead he said "it is now all about Arsenal – it is not in my hands. Now I just wait: it is up to Arsenal".
Could you really from a logical and intellecutal perspective see the logic in telling that his future was not up to him anymore and not in his hands if he really wanted to stay when he had a contract until 2015? What we got from Fabregas in 2011/2012 was a half-hearted season, the always present end of season collapse under Fabregas captaincy and a disgraceful performance away to Barcelona. He had some great games and match-winning performances in the domestic cups when coming off the bench, but overall in his last season for Arsenal he only showed up when he felt like it. He was a shadow of the player he was in the previous season.

Wilshere gets all the praise for his performance, but it was Cesc's ability that created the space for him. Not to mention his penalty the previous year at the Emirates (Which was taken with a suspected broken leg IIRC).

I really disagree. Credit to Fabregas for the pre-assist with a fantastic pass but he really struggled against Barcelona's midfield. Wilshere created space for himself as he turned and dribbled away from Barcelona's pressing (Milan's first goal in the second leg against Barcelona this season was created with a similar Wilshere-esque turn that overcame the Barcelona pressing). Song, Fabregas and Nasri could not handle the pressing and were dispossessed time after time. It was only after Wilshere stepped up and coped with the pressing that Arsenal could keep the ball within the team. Did Fabregas have more end product than Wilshere in that game - yes. Was it possible without Wilshere allowing us to control the midfield in the second half - absolutely not. Without Fabregas the game may have ended 1-1 instead. Without Wilshere we would have been slaughtered and the quality of Barcelona's finishing would have decided with how many goals they would have won (probably 1-3 or 1-4).

Didn't he stick with the project from 2006

Are you seriously saying that Fabregas was the finished product in 2006? I would begin to count with 2007/2008 which was the season that Fabregas became a superstar. He was too inconsistent prior to that season.

Are you seriously implying that Cesc Fabregas was only about great passing? If so, I am absolutely staggered.

With passing I mean vision (spot the run and knowing when to make the pass), ability to create space for onself and execution (perfect weight and direction). Fabregas was an assist machine and became a good finisher (not a great one like van Persie but very good for being a midfielder). He was an ideal player for controlling the midfield, but domestically he only played well in 4-4-2 with Flamini. Our team became very imbalanced when we changed to 4-3-3. Fabregas had the end product in the offense but we did not defend as a team anymore.

Cesc Fabregas certainly could defend. Not anywhere near the level of Vieira but still to a good standard. Continually covering the most ground certainly helps his cause for being vital to our team defensively.

Fabregas can not defend. Wilshere can not defend (all his tackles are mis-timed by the way). Ramsey can not defend. Arteta can defend. Covering the most ground counts for nothing unless you make the right runs. In the offense Fabregas running paid off. In defense he was clueless. Ramsey covered the most ground for Arsenal on an average game this season, but he was still terrible defensively. The work rate was there but not the understanding of the defensive game. Compare Arteta in a deep position and Fabregas in a deep position before he was shifted to SS. Fabregas probably ran a lot more than Arteta, but Arteta was a much better player defensively.
The only 4-4-2 CM partnership that worked with Fabregas was with Flamini who had to run like a rabbit all over the pitch to make up for Fabregas defensive deficits. Both Gilberto and Vieira had to babysit Fabregas in the defensive aspect of the game.

Or Vieira when he helped convince Nasri to move.

Once again, you bring up what the player did after he left Arsenal.

Just to counteract the balance of the photos, here's a few from the other side of the fence that you conveniently 'forgot' to mention

The matter was whether he was a warrior, not if he was a good finisher and assist machine.

And yet, I remember the 3-1 vs Chelsea where we ripped them to shreds in 2010 IIRC and Cesc was the MOTM that day. Or his solo run when we beat Spu*s 3-1. The 6-1 at Goodison wasn't too bad either. Or the 3-0 defeat of Man ****ty in 2010.

Huge credit to Walcott and Fabregas for their performances in the 3-1 win against Chelsea. Huge credit to Fabregas for his solo run against Tottenham. The 6-1 win against Everton was a beautiful game but we traditionally have a very good record against Everton both with and without Fabregas. The 3-0 defeat of City in 2010 was a beautiful game as well, but Fabregas was hardly MOTM in that game. Fabregas main contribution in that game was the pass that sent Chamakh free which lead to Boyata's red card. A decisive moment, but so was Fabianski's save on David Silva's shot in the first minute, Fabianski's save on Silva's shot from a very good angle in the second half and Fabianski running out to stop Adebayor from having a free header. Fabianski had his ups and downs in the Arsenal shirt but he was easily Arsenal's MOTM in this game.

I'll humour you, where's your proof that Cesc thought he was too good for defending?

Fabregas did not develop his defensive game at all in all the years he played at Arsenal. If whe ould have been interested in defending, he would have developed his defensive game. It is not like he was an unintelligent football player (his vision in the offense is out of this world).

Once more, where is the evidence that he 'made himself impossible' for the club?

At the Q and A, Gazidis made it clear that Arsenal did not want to sell Fabregas. Wenger declared Fabregas injury free prior to the Benfica pre season friendly. Wenger thus left Fabregas to hang and dry. Wenger could have said that Fabregas was injured like he used to do when he wants to protect a player.

Everything about the transfer saga in 2011 tells that Fabregas made himself impossible at Arsenal. You may say that Fabregas respected his contract in the summer of 2010 (although he whored himself out to Barcelona he still played another season but it came to be a half-hearted one where he was a shadow of the player he previously had been for Arsenal). In 2011 he forced the sale.

Care to prove this colourful claim?

The skipper was then asked if he would like to stay for the rest of his career.

"Why not?" he replied. "I have never thought about it. I'm only 22. You never know what your career will bring but why not? I'm in my seventh season now and I'm really happy, better than ever."

Fabregas also believes that his desire to win trophies can be satisfied too. Barca's relative success compared to Arsenal is sometimes cited as a reason for moving.

"We can achieve that here," said Fabregas in response to the question. "I have played some Finals, fought for Premier League titles.

"It's true that at the end of the season we have sometimes had some feeling that we haven't done it but I'm really happy with the way this club focuses on winning things and I'm sure we are more than capable of doing it this season."
arsenal.com November 23, 2009
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/fabregas-i-am-happier-than-ever-here" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archiv ... -ever-here</a>

"it is now all about Arsenal – it is not in my hands. Now I just wait: it is up to Arsenal".
Fabregas on TV in May 2010

The way Fabregas handled his transfer saga shows that he wanted to have the cake and eat it. He says that he still loves Arsenal (like he kissed the badge) but you do not leave the way he did if you really love the club.

 

[Cudareli]

Won't have to go much further back than 09/10.

In that fairly weak team, Fabregas scored 19 goals, made 19 assists and was your top-scorer while still controlling the midfield.

Seriously don't think you cannot agree that he carried the entire team that season, he was phenomenal. Better than RVP was this season, easily.

Fabregas was very effective in 2009/2010. It is fair enough to say that he dragged us in many games when he played (71 % of the league games). However, I asked about what seasonS (plural) Fabregas dragged us to CL singlehandedly (something DJ_Markstar claimed Fabregas did). Fabregas was very good, but is surreal to read that Fabregas was better in 2009/2010 than van Persie in 2011/2012:

Results in big games with Fabregas in 2009/2010
City A 2-4
Tottenham H 3-0, Absolutely brilliant solo goal by Fabregas. Fantastis stuff.
Chelsea H 0-3
Liverpool A 2-1, Fabregas assisted Arshavin's match-winning goal with a great cross.
United H 1-3
Chelsea A 0-2
Liverpool H 1-0, Fabregas should have received his second yellow card for blocking the ball with his arm when standing in the wall (see the picture on the previous page).
Barcelona H 2-2, Passionate performance by Fabregas. He won a penalty that he converted to make it 2-2.

Fabregas played as a SS. Fabregas had 19 goals and 19 assists in 2009/2010. In the 8 big games above, Fabregas had 2 goals and 1 assist. Fabregas failed to show up in many big games domestically. Now let us compare that with van Persie's performances in 2011/2012. Many people would say that Arsenal's squad in 2011/2012 was the worst under Wenger.

Results in big games with van Persie in 2011/2012
Liverpool H 0-2
United A 2-8, van Persie missed a penalty at a vital moment but scored a consolation goal.
Tottenham A, 1-2
Chelsea A 5-3, van Persie scored 3 goals and assisted Walcott's bizarre goal.
City A 0-1
United H 1-2, van Persie scored the equalizer with a great finish.
Milan A 0-4
Tottenham H 5-2, van Persie scored the 2-2 equalizer out of nowhere on his own and assisted a goal for Walcott.
Liverpool A 2-1, van Persie scored 2 goals with a header and a fantastic volley.
Milan H 3-0, van Persie converted a penalty
City H 1-0
Chelsea A 0-0

van Persie played as a CF. van Persie had 37 goals and 11 assists in 2011/2012. In the 12 big games above, van Persie had 9 goals and 2 assists. van Persie won us several big games with fantastic goals. van Persie made the difference against all types of opposition including top teams.

Then there was the 07/08 season where he basically made Adebayor a star. Fabregas was an assist machine that season, making 23 assist while still scoring 13 goals. That was probably your weakest team in a long time as well, and the fact that Adebayor managed to score 30 goals says it all.

redwhiteAustrian and mo50 have written what I wanted to say about the 2007/2008. That was our best and most balanced team since moving from Highbury.
Regarding Adebayor he scored 24 PL goals in 36 matches for Arsenal in 2007/2008 (0.67 goals per game) whereas he scored 17 PL goals in 33 matches for Tottenham in 2011/2012 (0.51 goals per game). Since he played in a better team in 2007/2008 I would not say that the difference is that big. Fabregas made Adebayor better, but he did not suddenly became crap when he did not play with Fabregas. With Adebayor it is mainly about whether or not he is motivated.

Fabregas is without a doubt one of the best players to have played for Arsenal FC in recent times. He easily rivals the likes of Pires and Vieira and hadn't he left on somewhat bad terms and stayed, he'd have become a club legend.

Fabregas was one of the best contemporary offensive players in the world. He was still nowhere near the player Vieira was for us. Vieira was a complete once in a lifetime-midfielder for a club like Arsenal. Fabregas would obviously had become a legend if he stayed and spent his whole career at Arsenal. I mainly despise Fabregas because he fvcked the club over by leaving on very bad terms. If Fabregas would have left in a normal way in 2010 for £50-60M - then I would have respected him, thanked him for his service and wished him all the best in the future.

I can't believe future heroes mentioned those hand ball incidents like it was a big deal. Talk about clutching at straws.

To me it was a big deal. It was mentioned to counter the opinion that Fabregas was a warrior. In my opinion you are not a warrior if you repeatedly raise your arms when standing in the wall. Fabregas was only a warrior when it suited him and he felt like fighting. After all he was the player who got wound up and whined when the opposite team parked the bus against us.

We shouldn't rewrite history now that he's left. I would've liked to earn more money for him, in fact, I think for a player of his age, talent, contract length and pedigree, we should've received double what we actually got. Our management is to blame for getting bent over so easily.

You do not get £60M when the player is desperate to leave for one club only and then make himself impossible at the club he is contracted at. If Fabregas would have shown some sympathy for the club that made him a superstar, he would not have played the dirty transfer game and we would have received at least £50M, his true transfer value the summer he left. That would not have changed my assesment of him as a player, but to me he would have left on good terms.

Actually read all of that and to be fair, he puts up some good arguments.

 

[AFC-Phil]

I'm afraid you'll have to wait a week for any sort of reply. Sorry.

 

[DJ_Markstar]

.

You don't say! Really? When? That's shocking to say the least.

.

 

[future heroes]

AFC-Phil: Don't be sorry. I know that you just try to be polite but you should not have to apologize. It is not a problem at all. I often see people that apologize on internet forums for not answering fast enough, but the beautiful thing with internet forums is that people answer when they get time and lust to invest into the discussion. The conversations thus tend to get more engaged and reasoned. It is a privilege to discuss with other Arsenal fans on this forum and the discussion about Fabregas is timeless anyway since it only digs into the past.

It is not like one of us is gonna change opinion on this topic anyway. What one thinks about Fabregas transfer is very much based on the respective opinion about the modern football landscape.

The assessment of Fabregas as a player (football-wise on the field, not personality or a moral discussion) is more interesting. I generally appreciate second opinions on football (on field) matters because different persons will notice different things from the same match. We may not agree on Fabregas defensive quality, but is interesting to discuss why we disagree. In this case that was just a peripheral point but it is generally obvious that one can learn from others when assessing player quality.

In off-field matters like club finances, club policies, Wenger, Uefa, FA etc everyone seems to already have a cemented opinion from which they won't budge. These threads generally generate the most intelligent discussions but are rather pointless to me anyway since few tend to be open to a new opinion (it is more about being right or winninng the discussion).

The player and tactical discussions on the other hand can be very interesting to me as they increase my understanding of our current team.

Feel free to respond as much or as little whenever you want. It is just a bonus to me if you think that some of my points in the post above are worth to further discuss.

 

[Airknight]

Parlour and Keown will play again with the likes of Caniggia and McBride in this FA Cup

Seaman is the goalkeeping coach.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18534739" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18534739</a>" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Parlour, 39, said: "I've always believed grassroots football is essential to the lifeblood of the game.


"So I jumped at the chance."


Here's hoping for a fun surprise

 

[yuvken]

(Phil: vieira? Really? He's head of football operations/aquisions or whatever for Manc, wasn't he doing his job? Or we expect them to not be against us for a lifetime, otherwise it proves their heart wasn't in it to begin with?)

In equal measure, you could take his mistake as being the act of joining Man City. He's certainly 'tainted' his legacy to some as a result of his role there, and consequently in aiding players to leave us.

I think if you look at it carefully you'll see you are making my point stronger. Sure, I thought he was a tosser for joining them, and I myself hated him for the Nasri affair ( those clips of Nasir entering their corridors to high five Vieira awaiting... Repugnant, what else?). And as we are humans ( well, most of us) we are affected. But does that really mean anything at all regarding the time he actually played for us? Hardly, IMHO. Same for Cesc. Point I made was separate: look at what they do for us, judge pro attitude, expect realistically on loyalty, and remember integrity means for a person .
(the internal divide is individual. FWIW, I think Vieira is the kind of guy who just is of a "mostly mercenary" composition. Guys who can put all of their hearts, then gather their roots, pack'em and move on. Doesn't sound like a great thing to say of someone, particularly when you realize what his "integrity" actually consists of, but they do exist, and are sometimes very, very good. He certainly was - we shouldn't forget that! He's still, and Always will be, the captain of the best side we ever had, and one of the best players in it.)

 

[darkgunner]

Non-league Wembley FC have recruited former internationals Ray Parlour, Martin Keown, Graeme Le Saux, Claudio Caniggia and Brian McBride to play in their FA Cup campaign this season.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18534739" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18534739</a>" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

interesting

That is so cool, I've always wanted to see something like this done. I doubt that they will go far, but if they do, it will be down to their experience.

 

[Le Professeur]

This should be fun!

Regarding Fabregas and Nasri it is fascinating to notice what behavior some people consider as the worst. Nasri left in a professional way. He respected his contract and was sold on an open market. The transfer fee gave Arsenal a fair chance to buy a replacement of a similar quality. After Nasri left, he's had a childish beef with some Arsenal supporters that are equally childish.

Fantastic post. Hard to fathom how he's crucified by quite some Arsenal fans after all those years of brilliant service. Really sad we haven't been able to give him at least one trophy in return (except that one FA Cup when he was about 8).

Still wearing my no. 4 shirt with pride.

 

[Bossa]

This should be fun!

Regarding Fabregas and Nasri it is fascinating to notice what behavior some people consider as the worst. Nasri left in a professional way. He respected his contract and was sold on an open market. The transfer fee gave Arsenal a fair chance to buy a replacement of a similar quality. After Nasri left, he's had a childish beef with some Arsenal supporters that are equally childish.

Fantastic post. Hard to fathom how he's crucified by quite some Arsenal fans after all those years of brilliant service. Really sad we haven't been able to give him at least one trophy in return (except that one FA Cup when he was about 8).

Still wearing my no. 4 shirt with pride.

It's the nature of the beast. If an important players leaves us then he will be disliked.

 

[mo50]

To me it was a big deal. It was mentioned to counter the opinion that Fabregas was a warrior. In my opinion you are not a warrior if you repeatedly raise your arms when standing in the wall. Fabregas was only a warrior when it suited him and he felt like fighting. After all he was the player who got wound up and whined when the opposite team parked the bus against us.

Raising your hand once or twice is insignificant compared to what he'd done for us. Do you remember his warrior like performance against Juventus in a CL quarter final? Do you remember his solo run against Sp**s in a NLD? How about the goal to knock out Milan, the defending Champions, out of Europe? Or score a crucial penalty with a broken leg against his hometown club? Or the dozens and dozens of precise, pin point, sexy and outrageous passes he provided with his teammates on a consistent basis? Those are the moments that will remain in the memory, not a measly handball or a silly sending off.

You do not get £60M when the player is desperate to leave for one club only and then make himself impossible at the club he is contracted at. If Fabregas would have shown some sympathy for the club that made him a superstar, he would not have played the dirty transfer game and we would have received at least £50M, his true transfer value the summer he left. That would not have changed my assesment of him as a player, but to me he would have left on good terms.

I agree with you here, but his case was unique. He was only ever going to leave Barca, he made that clear. Barca knew that and they played the transfer game perfectly. Even if we kept him, he'd now have 3 years left on his deal and we'd still have that whole hindrance surrounding us. I'm just bitter we didn't receive a fee a player of his quality was worth in an inflated market.

 

[Le Professeur]

One of the times he got his arms up it seemed to me as if he was actually trying to bring Chamakh's arms down. Not sure though.

 

[morpho]

Half of L'Equipes readers want Nasri banned for life cant help my self... I find that very amusing