Is The Premier League Tougher Than It Used To Be?

Is It?


  • Total voters
    74

AbouCuéllar

Wishes to get banned elsewhere
What a crock of sh*te, its like he had an idea and wanted to justify, Spain didnt win a,b,c because other teams have bigger and faster players.

Madrid and Barca are in a low point because mismanagement and corruption. The Spanish team have a very strong squad and some insane players like Dani Olmo.

Sam Allardyce thinking in that article, laughable at best. Waiting for the next article where he will say Arsenal should play hoofball and play 2 big lads up front.
It doesn't feel like you've read the article with much detail or paid much attention to the interesting / relevant parts to this argument (discussion of the tactical history of football in recent times, discussion of way of training and tactical development here vs. England and how England has now been applying our model for a number of years now and it has already reached a point where it is giving fruit, etc.). But oh well.

Graham Hunter is a good commentator on our football and a decent football mind. Comparing him to Allardyce is a bit strange. I don't even understand your last two sentences tbh, lol, that is the last thing he would push for, being familiar with his thinking and ideas on football.
 

Monstar-Gunn4r

Established Member
It doesn't feel like you've read the article with much detail or paid much attention to the interesting / relevant parts to this argument (discussion of the tactical history of football in recent times, discussion of way of training and tactical development here vs. England and how England has now been applying our model for a number of years now and it has already reached a point where it is giving fruit, etc.). But oh well.

Graham Hunter is a good commentator on our football and a decent football mind. Comparing him to Allardyce is a bit strange. I don't even understand your last two sentences tbh, lol, that is the last thing he would push for, being familiar with his thinking and ideas on football.
Feels like you need to put on your glasses and actually read the thing. The man is probably writing for ukip in his spare time, the whole thing is Spain bad, England good.

"The pressing matter is that Spain can't, well, press. Or don't, anyway"

"they nevertheless look slow, too small, either too old or too young, pressable, predictable and far too easy to outwork. There are hints of this in the national team, too."

"The linking factors are omnipresent. Rivals who are faster, taller, run more"

So Ill say again what a crock of sh*te regards Spain, watching Italy V Spain and how stupid the entire thing looks, maybe you should try watching football once in a while.

Clearly English football coaching has changed for the better but what he says about Spanish football is laughable. Maybe Spain need a Peter Crouch or a Walcott and they'd be beating Italy 3 nil now?
 

GeorgiaGunner

#FreeClaude
Saw an interview with Vieira, he was asked about the differences between the league now and when he played in it...he said it's less skilful but faster.

@Macho

Guess the rumours in this thread are true...it's no longer football we are watching, but run-ball.
It's less skillful because you have less time on the ball, not because folks can't dribble anymore.
 

yorch44

Established Member
It's less skillful because you have less time on the ball, not because folks can't dribble anymore.
Again, the common mistake of thinking skill is same to dribble. Skills are about first touch, passing, vision, intelligence to make good decisions. Technical players are not the only who can dribble.

Now there are less technical ability but more running and strength... But anyway... I believe more to Viera than whoever you are.
 

GeorgiaGunner

#FreeClaude
Again, the common mistake of thinking skill is same to dribble. Skills are about first touch, passing, vision, intelligence to make good decisions. Technical players are not the only who can dribble.

Now there are less technical ability but more running and strength... But anyway... I believe more to Viera than whoever you are.
Obviously it means more than just dribbling – I was being glib. But everything you listed is made much harder when closed down more quickly, which makes 'skills' less apparent.

There is not less technical ability. The league is stronger than ever – the worldwide player pool is larger, the science is better, the coaching is better, training techniques are better, and the economic incentives of being a pro player are more lavish than they've ever been.

Viera is entitled to his opinion. He is of course more knowledgeable about the game than anyone posting here, but he's also an extremely prideful guy and biased as a result. Retired players 'back in my day'-ing is nothing new.
 

yorch44

Established Member
Obviously it means more than just dribbling – I was being glib. But everything you listed is made much harder when closed down more quickly, which makes 'skills' less apparent.

There is not less technical ability. The league is stronger than ever – the worldwide player pool is larger, the science is better, the coaching is better, training techniques are better, and the economic incentives of being a pro player are more lavish than they've ever been.

Viera is entitled to his opinion. He is of course more knowledgeable about the game than anyone posting here, but he's also an extremely prideful guy and biased as a result. Retired players 'back in my day'-ing is nothing new.
Just look at Ronaldo 9 and Mbappe, the last is hyped and people in the world thinks he is super good. When he is only a runner with a decent dribbling. At the same age Ronaldo9 was s superb player destroying defenses for fun.

Or Henry, similar height and speed but tons of technical. And you don't see players like him today. Excepting Messi and CR9, there are not exceptional players like before, those times with Nedved, Zidane, Cafú, R.Carlos, Pirlo and more recently Kakà, Henry, Bergkamp, Ronaldo, Dinho, Xavi and Iniesta, Özil... You don't see that quality these days.
 

Blankety Blank

Well-Known Member
Just look at Ronaldo 9 and Mbappe, the last is hyped and people in the world thinks he is super good. When he is only a runner with a decent dribbling. At the same age Ronaldo9 was s superb player destroying defenses for fun.

Or Henry, similar height and speed but tons of technical. And you don't see players like him today. Excepting Messi and CR9, there are not exceptional players like before, those times with Nedved, Zidane, Cafú, R.Carlos, Pirlo and more recently Kakà, Henry, Bergkamp, Ronaldo, Dinho, Xavi and Iniesta, Özil... You don't see that quality these days.
Players are normally good technically its just that they simply dont get the time & space nowadays to show off 'skills' Messi & CR9 are probably the greatest ever.
Players like Debruyne. Hazard, Neymar etc are top level.
Özil simply couldnt handle the physical & tactical demands of the modern game.


So unfortunately we may not see 'skills' on the pitch because its tougher.


What some of the players can do in training is scary.
 

GeorgiaGunner

#FreeClaude
Just look at Ronaldo 9 and Mbappe, the last is hyped and people in the world thinks he is super good. When he is only a runner with a decent dribbling. At the same age Ronaldo9 was s superb player destroying defenses for fun.

Or Henry, similar height and speed but tons of technical. And you don't see players like him today. Excepting Messi and CR9, there are not exceptional players like before, those times with Nedved, Zidane, Cafú, R.Carlos, Pirlo and more recently Kakà, Henry, Bergkamp, Ronaldo, Dinho, Xavi and Iniesta, Özil... You don't see that quality these days.
We’re going to have to agree to disagree. The game gets better / more competitive every year, and it’s thus tougher and tougher to stand out.
 

GeorgiaGunner

#FreeClaude
Players are normally good technically its just that they simply dont get the time & space nowadays to show off 'skills' Messi & CR9 are probably the greatest ever.
Players like Debruyne. Hazard, Neymar etc are top level.
Özil simply couldnt handle the physical & tactical demands of the modern game.


So unfortunately we may not see 'skills' on the pitch because its tougher.


What some of the players can do in training is scary.
Agree 100% (and said something similar earlier in the thread). The game has evolved by leaps and bounds in the decades since the pomp of the players he’s lionizing. R9, Bergkamp, etc. would have looked far less skilled if they were closed down as quickly as players are today, by far more athletic and well-drilled defensive players.

Messi and Ronaldo are the exceptions because they’re the greatest ever. And even they are, by necessity, far more direct than some of the greats of yesteryear.
 

Blankety Blank

Well-Known Member
Agree 100% (and said something similar earlier in the thread). The game has evolved by leaps and bounds in the decades since the pomp of the players he’s lionizing. R9, Bergkamp, etc. would have looked far less skilled if they were closed down as quickly as players are today, by far more athletic and well-drilled defensive players.

Messi and Ronaldo are the exceptions because they’re the greatest ever. And even they are, by necessity, far more direct than some of the greats of yesteryear.
Yes i absolutely agree with this 100%. People also tend to remember more fondly the players from their formative years & often class it as some kind of golden age. Its usually nothing but nostalgia
Every sport has evolved and competitors have made improvements, you will always get generational talents but the top level today is tougher pretty much across the board.
 

Blankety Blank

Well-Known Member
Lol. You must be thinking Willi Özil from the 1966 German World Cup squad.
He couldnt though, Mourinho subbed him regularly at Madrid & here Arsène used to let him virtually pick & choose his games and put little defensive demands on him so he looked good.
When Emery & Arteta asked him to perform like a modern player his form pretty much fell off a cliff.

If he was up to the requirements of the top level modern game a team in a big league would have taken him.
No way he ends up in the Turkey
 

IstraBalagina

Well-Known Member
He couldnt though, Mourinho subbed him regularly at Madrid & here Arsène used to let him virtually pick & choose his games and put little defensive demands on him so he looked good.
When Emery & Arteta asked him to perform like a modern player his form pretty much fell off a cliff.

If he was up to the requirements of the top level modern game a team in a big league would have taken him.
No way he ends up in the Turkey
come here champions league GIF by BT Sport
 

yorch44

Established Member
We’re going to have to agree to disagree. The game gets better / more competitive every year, and it’s thus tougher and tougher to stand out
Physically yes, not in ability, intelligence and creativity. Now managers likes to control everything with the positional football. That's why Pep killed football in a way.

Seems contradictory but to make those nice plays he needs cyborgs to do only what he orders. I prefer Wenger and old similar approaches. Let the player move around freely and watch magic happens.
 

yorch44

Established Member
He couldnt though, Mourinho subbed him regularly at Madrid & here Arsène used to let him virtually pick & choose his games and put little defensive demands on him so he looked good.
When Emery & Arteta asked him to perform like a modern player his form pretty much fell off a cliff.

If he was up to the requirements of the top level modern game a team in a big league would have taken him.
No way he ends up in the Turkey
Lol you talk like he played for 50 years hahahaha... Like Emery and Arteta were good managers. Özil was the unique reason we played beautiful football with Xhaka, Iwobi and Giroud on the field. Then Alexis came and help him.

Ramsey was good, but not technically. He couldn't make what he did as 10. Ødegaard won't neither.
 

GeorgiaGunner

#FreeClaude
Physically yes, not in ability, intelligence and creativity. Now managers likes to control everything with the positional football. That's why Pep killed football in a way.

Seems contradictory but to make those nice plays he needs cyborgs to do only what he orders. I prefer Wenger and old similar approaches. Let the player move around freely and watch magic happens.
That’s simply not true. The players just don’t have the time on the ball to display it like they did in decades past — they’ve still got all the tools in the locker, and then some. You really think De Bruyne, if he’d played 20 years ago, couldn’t have made the passes that we saw from Bergkamp, Scholes, etc.?

Pep didn’t “kill football,” he adapted (reactively, not proactively) tactically to the fact that players cover a lot more ground on the defensive side of the ball. If you want the old offensive free-flow back, ban players from breathing through their mouthes when defending (or the like). The robotic factor — play dictated by rules-based tactical decision-trees, rather than ingenuity — became a necessity with the uptick in game speed.
 
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AbouCuéllar

Wishes to get banned elsewhere
The man is probably writing for ukip in his spare time, the whole thing is Spain bad, England good.
Graham Hunter lives here in Spain and has been a journalist covering our football here for many, many years.

the whole thing is Spain bad, England good.
No, pal. It's saying the same things many other analysts here in Spain say--Guillem Balague, though I think is a ****, also says similar things--but since he writes in English and this is an English forum I post it here. :) In short, it is never so simple as Spain bad, England good, but just talking about the tactical evolution of the sport that literally everybody is witnessing except the truthers on this forum.

So Ill say again what a crock of sh*te regards Spain, watching Italy V Spain and how stupid the entire thing looks, maybe you should try watching football once in a while.
Oh jesus. Talk about conflating issues. Nowhere is he making a comparison of the English and Spanish national teams. All of us who watch football knows which side plays better football. Anyone who watched the Euro cup knows that we outplayed Italy in the semifinal and probably were in the end the best team in the tournament (two things going on here: a. Luis Enrique is far above the standard of other international coaches and b. working with our players that come through our academies and our rojita youth levels comes with the advantage that Graham Hunter alludes to in the article...)

Somewhere in the middle of this, I remember interviewing Gines Melendez, responsible for the Spanish FA's overall development of their rock-solid concepts, their ability to maximise talent and their winning mentality. The following day he was off to lecture at the relatively new St. George's Park -- home of English football's brain trust.

I asked Gines: "Explain to me why you are going to share all your hard-earned, precious knowledge with an 'enemy.'" He told me: "Because it's healthy to ensure that knowledge sharing expands the game of football and, besides, by the time the English catch up we'll have moved on by several stages again."

Anyways, I don't know why I bother. It really feels like all nuance is lost on some posters here, and people will read for what they want to read. You've taken an article about the tactical evolution in broad strokes of football and the rise of the English league in concert with the fall of the Spanish league and the reasons for, and somehow turned it into a piece about England's national team being great and Spain's being ****, which the author has never said... very weird.

Anyways, recommend the article to other, a bit more open-minded readers, as, like I said, it touches nicely on this debate.

Top posting from @GeorgiaGunner here, as an aside.
 
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