Premier League 2017/18: We(nger) Go Again

[KROENKE SUCKS]

Arséne has never been in a position where he has been at a truly top club with all of the resources that implies, so he has actually been overachieving all of his time at Arsenal. Off course your team will have a pattern of falling off if you are consistently overachieving. Back when we were consistently finishing 2nd every year and came within a hairs breath of winning the double 3 years in a row and the CL in 2006 (not to mention going unbeaten a historic and unmatched achievement) there were many teams within our spending power yet we consistently beat them in the league, the FA cup and the CL. Liverpool, Chelsea, Newcastle, Leeds all tried, all spent excessively and all failed. The only team which managed to compete on a similar level to us was one with Far more resources.

Since then we've seen the influx of moneyed clubs and our own club hamstrung by crappy commercial deals from 2002 (most of which was payed upfront and spent upfront on stadium development) and the debt from the stadium. Despite this he has consistently gotten us top 4 in every single season but 1, managed to win 3 FA cups including breaking a few records along the way, and done so by often out competing teams who consistently spend FAR more than us year after year.

The influx of new commercial deals in 2014 saw us try to restructure the squad and saw us come closest to the title on two occasions. Unfortunately our deals were quickly outdated again by 2016 and we were never able to finish the restructuring process. This has left the squad in a state of limbo and without an owner willing to spend his own money in order to make the shortfall we are just going to have to wait until new deals kick in. Fortunately the club haven't been idle and have realised that improvements can be made in other areas, like talent acquisition.

If Wenger ever managed a team with the resources of a Real Madrid or Barcelona he would have 10 UCL trophies, much less a Man City or a PSG.

There I've highlighted the relevant parts for you. Arsène has always been an over-achiever. I expect that trend to continue the more resources he has vis-a-vis the competition.

Even Real and Barca haven't won the league unbeaten. The only other major top division club to do it did so in the current climate where only a handful of clubs are even rich enough to compete and they did it in what is essentially a one club league. Arsène doing what he did with Arsenal is similar to Valencia winning La Liga unbeaten much less Real.

And no this isn't the sole basis of my argument read the rest of the bolded, so don't you dare reduce my argument down to this.

I just wanted to re-emphasise this point. Doing truly historic things is something even the best and greatest managers only tend to do with the biggest and richest clubs. Fungus with yanited. Pep with Barca, etc.

So how great a manager must Arsène Wenger be to have done it with Arsenal. Imo he is atleast a level above the best managers.

 

[redanddread]

There I've highlighted the relevant parts for you. Arséne has always been an over-achiever. I expect that trend to continue the more resources he has vis-a-vis the competition.

Even Real and Barca haven't won the league unbeaten. The only other major top division club to do it did so in the current climate where only a handful of clubs are even rich enough to compete and they did it in what is essentially a one club league. Arséne doing what he did with Arsenal is similar to Valencia winning La Liga unbeaten much less Real.

And no this isn't the sole basis of my argument read the rest of the bolded, so don't you dare reduce my argument down to this.

I just wanted to re-emphasise this point. Doing truly historic things is something even the best and greatest managers only tend to do with the biggest and richest clubs. Fungus with yanited. Pep with Barca, etc.

So how great a manager must Arséne Wenger be to have done it with Arsenal. Imo he is atleast a level above the best managers.

If he's a level above the BEST managers then that logically would make him the best. Are you saying that Arsène Wenger is the best manager ever? Or is this more hyperbole?

Arsenal are a giant of a club and have been a giant of English game long before Arsène even arrived. You're behaving like we're some sort of middle of the road 2nd tier English club.

 

[KROENKE SUCKS]

We were 5 points clear of UTD. when Eduardo got injured and not only gave away 2 pts to 10 man Birmingham in that match but proceeded to drop points to the mighty Aston Villa, Wigan & Middlesbrough to concede the title. In fact once going 5pts clear we then won ONE match in EIGHT to concede the title. Any normal person would call that a collapse. Furthermore I've provided empirical evidence of similar collapses in 2013/14, 2015/16 & to a lesser extent in 2009/10. but you stay on your planet & continue to think Arséne would have won multiple CL titles if he had a more money. There's the distinct possibility he wouldn't even have won any more EPL titles with more money.

5 points is nothing in a league campaign. And we didn't just lose Eduardo, we lost Eduardo in addition to Rosicky and RvP and Hleb for a period as well. For a young team, just coming together it was too much. United would've probably collapsed too had they lost one much less two of Rooney, Tevez and Ronaldo.

Your empirical evidence doesn't refute my point, Wenger had over-achieved to get the squad into those positions to begin with. 2013-14 was a whole new project in essence with Özil and we did fantastically well and may have even won the league if Özil hadn't gotten injured. 15/16 was when made major progress towards restructuring the squad but missed out on two key signings that ultimately prevented us from competing. Since then our sponsorships have been again left behind and the net result is that we've only added medium level talent that just isn't good enough.

 

[KROENKE SUCKS]

If he's a level above the BEST managers then that logically would make him the best. Are you saying that Arséne Wenger is the best manager ever? Or is this more hyperbole?

He is the best of his generation. IFFHS manager of the decade. They know a thing or two about football, I can assure you.

 

[redanddread]

5 points is nothing in a league campaign. And we didn't just lose Eduardo, we lost Eduardo in addition to Rosicky and RvP and Hleb for a period as well. For a young team, just coming together it was too much. United would've probably collapsed too had they lost one much less two of Rooney, Tevez and Ronaldo.

Your empirical evidence doesn't refute my point, Wenger had over-achieved to get the squad into those positions to begin with. 2013-14 was a whole new project in essence with Özil and we did fantastically well and may have even won the league if Özil hadn't gotten injured. 15/16 was when made major progress towards restructuring the squad but missed out on two key signings that ultimately prevented us from competing. Since then our sponsorships have been again left behind and the net result is that we've only added medium level talent that just isn't good enough.

2007/08 - "For a young team, just coming together it was too much. United would've probably collapsed too had they lost one much less two of Rooney, Tevez and Ronaldo." - I agree it was too much for them but certainly, however, the fact is they still capitulated. We surrendered the lead at the top of the league because of draws to Birmingham, VILLA, Boro & Wigan! Every team in the history of football has to cope with injuries - We won ONE in EIGHT games when poised 5 pts clear at the top of league. We'd played magnificent football all season but folded like a wet rag at the most crucial point.

2013/14 - So we lost the league because Özil got injured? Every team in world football has to contend with injuries. We went to Anfield as league leaders (with Özil) and got eviscerated 5-1, our worst result there in 50 years, and folded yet again like a wet rag and within a few weeks our title challenge was buried.

2015/16: Injuries anyone? No but a home loss to Swansea and a loss to a very injury depleted UTD. side buried our chances once again. As for missing out on 2 key signings - Bro, WTF are you drinking - Arsène opted to buy NO ONE in the summer. The only club in ALL 5 major European leagues not to buy an outfield player. Why, because his squad was already good enough apparently.

I get no joy in highlighting these failure but for you guys to think that it was simply down to a few injuries and bad luck is an absolute denial of what we have watched happen on the pitch over the last decade.

 

[redanddread]

He is the best of his generation. IFFHS manager of the decade. They know a thing or two about football, I can assure you.

Yes and he won those awards for what he did in his early years and no one is denying he WAS a great manager. But he certainly hasn't put a body of work together to suggest he could achieve that in his last decade of management. However, to call him the best manager ever which is what you did by virtue of logic, is absolute nonsense.

 

[Nicenho]

2007/08 - "For a young team, just coming together it was too much. United would've probably collapsed too had they lost one much less two of Rooney, Tevez and Ronaldo." - I agree it was too much for them but certainly, however, the fact is they still capitulated. We surrendered the lead at the top of the league because of draws to Birmingham, VILLA, Boro & Wigan! Every team in the history of football has to cope with injuries - We won ONE in EIGHT games when poised 5 pts clear at the top of league. We'd played magnificent football all season but folded like a wet rag at the most crucial point.

2013/14 - So we lost the league because Özil got injured? Every team in world football has to contend with injuries. We went to Anfield as league leaders (with Özil) and got eviscerated 5-1, our worst result there in 50 years, and folded yet again like a wet rag and within a few weeks our title challenge was buried.

2015/16: Injuries anyone? No but a home loss to Swansea and a loss to a very injury depleted UTD. side buried our chances once again. As for missing out on 2 key signings - Bro, WTF are you drinking - Arséne opted to buy NO ONE in the summer. The only club in ALL 5 major European leagues not to buy an outfield player. Why, because his squad was already good enough apparently.

I get no joy in highlighting these failure but for you guys to think that it was simply down to a few injuries and bad luck is an absolute denial of what we have watched happen on the pitch over the last decade.

Well said mate. Really could’nt believe it how much this fella praises Wenger. Baffles me really.

 

[Mark Tobias]

Well, apart from what I already mentioned they're also through to the knock-out stages of the CL for the first time in nine years and have successfully expanded their stadium capacity to 55,000.

They come from a dark place but are doing good work now.

I take your point. Let's see how they finish. I suspect you're right, I just don't feel they've quite overtaken us yet and therefore I feel we can stay ahead.... IF we do what's required. I suspect you feel similarly

 

[Mark Tobias]

Don't even trying to argue with that dude bro - he's like a religious fundamentalist and will pluck any random stat to support his POV and completely evade/avoid any other facts that may prove his opinion incorrect.

Red, I know you're frustrated and I know Trax has certain nuances and ways of being extremely passive aggressive but I have sit on the fence when judging him.
Either he's a manic Wenger fan and in that case I respect his tenacity and admire it.
Or he's club PR and in that case I admire how good at his job he is.
Still, makes for good debate. You've had some quality posts lately though. Enjoying it.

 

[Mark Tobias]

You can't say the move was wrong. We were ahead of the game with that move and did it before the great financial collapse. We had a head start that we've frittered away and failed to build on.

All that seemed to happen was that Arséne decided to change his footballing philosophy. He could still have developed footballers in the mould of those that won him trophies at Highbury but chose to go away from that and copy the Barcelona style of play. That he's never managed to develop them into a team that amounted to anything has very little to do with moving to the Emirates. Had he won the title in 07/08 who knows.

Furthermore, living in Jamaica at the time I can attest to how big Arsenal were back then. Everybody wore Arsenal shirts then - common as sand grains. Obviously UTD. & Liverpool had a historic following as did we to a smaller level but the team of the moment on everyone's lips was Arsenal.

Wenger's vision was to make Arsenal a bigger brand than UTD., something he felt he could achieve when at the pinnacle of his success. DD advised him he'd never be able to do it though. DD was right in the long run but probably for different reasons as I don't expect that DD thought Arséne would never go on and achieve great things again.

True, we built a big brand in that era... still shows this side with many Gooners here in RSA wearing O2 shirts etc

 

[redanddread]

Red, I know you're frustrated and I know Trax has certain nuances and ways of being extremely passive aggressive but I have sit on the fence when judging him.
Either he's a manic Wenger fan and in that case I respect his tenacity and admire it.
Or he's club PR and in that case I admire how good at his job he is.
Still, makes for good debate. You've had some quality posts lately though. Enjoying it.

 

[Mark Tobias]

If he is, I may consider plonking myself firmly in his..... any available positions @Makingtrax

 

[Toast]

Before the season started the club was crystal clear on what our target for this season is: challenging for the league title by getting to 85 points.
-------------------------------
31 May 2017
“Our ambition is to win the Premier League and other major trophies in Europe. It’s what the fans, players, staff, manager and board expect and we won’t rest until that is achieved." - Stan Kroenke.

"We’re committed to mounting a sustained league challenge and that will be our focus this summer and next season." - Arséne Wenger.

"“There is no complacency anywhere at this club. Our goal is to compete for and win trophies here and in Europe." - Ivan Gazidis.

30 June 2017 - Ivan Gazidis
(On his hopes for the 2017/18 season)
There is an awful lot going on, we’re only four weeks from the end of last season. You’ll see the product of some of that work soon, some on the player front, some will be behind the scenes. All of that work is geared towards getting from 75 points to 85 and more, to win the Premier League.

5 August 2017 - Arséne Wenger
"When you have made 75 points (last season), your target is to get 10 points more. And with 10 points more, you are in there (the title race)."
--------------------------------
It is now January 14th and it is already mathematically impossible to achieve that target. This season is a complete and utter failure by the standards the club set itself and heads therefore need to roll.

 

[GDeep™]

Wenger has stuck around too long and we’re treading water now.

I think the club has to find an exit for him this summer. But here again, our board just don’t manoeuvre like that, there is no impetus to act on the front foot.

 

[Gooner Zig]

Wenger has stuck around too long and we’re treading water now.

I think the club has to find an exit for him this summer. But here again, our board just don’t manoeuvre like that, there is no impetus to act on the front foot.

Treading water is making Top 4

We're going backwards at an alarming rate

 

[GDeep™]

Treading water is making Top 4

We're going backwards at an alarming rate

Are we going back or is the rest of football advancing? Think we’ve been left behind. Ambitious owners, young managers, big budgets etc.

 

[progman07]

I think you're missing my point bro. I don't argue that we haven't spent as much and I don't argue that spending more will in the long run give you a better chance of winning the whole shabang. However, the fact that we haven't spent as much is not the only reason we've not been competing in the league.
(...)

My issue with Arséne is that he hasn't been able to get the best out of his squad when it really counts.
(...)

Totally agreed.

We have not lost today because we have not spent as much as Man City or United, and it goes for many previous games as well. We should at the least compete against the bottom 10 teams, and show a better attacking play, we have spent enough to play better football.

 

[Camus]

You know your season is down the ****ter when the one highlight is another team losing a game.

 

[redanddread]

You know your season is down the ****ter when the one highlight is another team losing a game.

You know your season is down the ****ter when the one highlight is another team losing a game - to maintain a record your club achieved 14 years ago.

 

[redanddread]

Are we going back or is the rest of football advancing? Think we’ve been left behind. Ambitious owners, young managers, big budgets etc.

We're going backwards:

Arsenal have yet to win in 2018, their worst start to any year since 1995 which was the year before Wenger arrived. If anyone can remember that far back.