Discussion in 'Arsenal Talk' started by Split, Apr 16, 2004.
Have to confess im 100% with clock end on this one
Football slanting has become part of the game and we have to accept it. Its not going to change and just like we call them "Yids" they call us **** also. The word "Yids" has stuck onto the scum and thats it. When we call them Yids its not intentionally insulting other races its just directed to the scum and thats it nothing more.
Its not like they care anyways..they do call themsleves that.."The Yid army".
Obviously I won't go that far but what other people do regarding the scum is entirely up to them. I am not going to judge a person I don't know just because he ahs a tatoo on his face.
If the Tottenham fans - most of whom are not Jewish - are happy to territorialise the word as their own, which they are, then there's no real problem with Arsenal fans (some of whom are Jewish) using it against them... it's not being used in a racial context, but in a purely football one, and as long as no-one starts confusing the two (which is quite likely by this stage) there's no major issue.
once saw an arsenal shirt with 'He used to be a Yid, but he didn't cost a quid 23' FANTASTIC!
You seem to be missing my point somewhat! I have been to many arsenal v Sp**s derbies. I join in all the "we hate tottenham" chants etc (but just not the bit in between when people shout "yiddo, yiddo". it's the yids chants, the anti-semitic chants, the hissing noises, the people who tatoo "killer yids" on themselves. The things that say we hate you or we want to harm you because you are Jewish! that's what I have a problem with!
You obviously don't understand what I am talking about or where i am coming from as you seem to think that the word "yid" is just like "Chelscum" or "Manure", these words have no connotations whatsoever other than saying "we don't like you because of football"; "yids" is something completely different to that.
This sort of thing in itself is harmless and actually quite funny.
But it is when people aren't intelligent enough to see where the end lies and it goes too far. Unfortunately it is people like you clockend who have helped lead us to political correctness going bonkers because you don't seem to respect or understand the difference between mild banter and humour and offensive or racist behaviour. It is knowing where to draw the line which is the problem.
Without wishing to come over all frumpy I'm dissapointed by some of the feedback here.
We all hate spuds. No one sane minds the use of any manner of abuse toward them, including the word "yid", certainly none of the Jews posting here. I've already said I've sung a few ditties in my time. It would be political correctness gone mad to suggest otherwise, though I think the club board might differ!
All that's really being said is know when to draw the line. No offence Clockend & Leewat, but your posts thus far don't lead me to conclude you have drawn or know where to draw that line.
For example do you view the "gas song" as a harmless bit of banter? I certainly don't and I'm sure various members of my Dad's family wouldn't either, if they hadn't been gassed and were around to hear it, that is.
I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong.
To be fair Beany I have heard all the yiddo chants at Highbury but I have never heard the hissing sounds, though I know you'd probably get that from Chelsea nd West Ham. Obviously this is bang out of order as our insensitive references to the Munich air crash, but for me the yiddo chants are just a bit of harmless banter between the 2 clubs and most supporters don't see it a anything more than that.
I think that's what Split & I are saying; there's no problem with "yid" chants per se. I just don't like the blurring of lines between abusing spuds as "virtual yids" and actually abusing Jews!
Cant gooners get along?
I am a muslim ,this guy might be a christian, there is jews on this website-why cant we just kick Racism out of football.
if someone was to call my friend a yid and he is a Jew then its offensive end of.
I have to say I am also quite surprised and disappointed by the responses, and the results of the poll.
Having said that I think most of it is out of ignorance (as the amount of "don't know" votes highlight) rather than racist intent. However, ignorance is no excuse in my book.
In the words of self accepted weird Michael Mansun : "FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!"
This is a touchy area. The Sp**s call themselves Yids, while it is supposed to be discriminatory towards Jews.
Now I know Pakistanis and Indians who don't mind calling themselves Pakis. Some of them, when called Paki say " Yes I am, your point is?"
Now I know black people, loads, oddly - and they all say they take the word nigger with jest.
Clock End is right about the over exaggerated PC'ness here. We have to look at the bigger picture.
The same way somebody would not incorporate offence because they wouldn't invite it, the same way most people don't mean offense.
In these situations someone should speak out and say they find it offensive.
In truth though - the word Yid has two meanings, that are, a Sp**s fan and harsh discrimination towards Jews. It's a touchy area.
Then again I think it is non-issue too because there are far more problematic issues in the world rather than this football banter that has little or nothing to do with the extremes by which it is being taken here. I can't deny that some Jewish people would find it offensive and that should be respected but in truth most people who use it don't mean any offense at all.
Split, instead of being aggressive you should just state politely, I find it offensive and you understand that is generally Banter in football but you also find it offensive because it is inconsiderate and insulting to a whole race of people.
I live in Holland and it's interesting that Ajax here is called often by the name "Joden", which means Jews. Now the word Jew has become a negative word in itself in Holland unfortunately, so there's no need for others.
Here also Feyenoord and Utrecht supporters sing songs about gassing Jews and the like, and frankly I think it's disgusting. Supporting a football club and thus having another club as your enemy does not mean you HAVE to engange in the screaming of racist verses.
Just my two cents.
I don't think Split is being agressive.
All he's done is say, hey, those who've failed to come out & condemn the use of the word should explain why; if it's a harmless reason fine, if it's more please explain.
There is a disquieting undertone here & I think those who've posted to the effect that "killer yid" tattoos or whatever are fine should explain how they have reached that novel conclusion. Result? The sound of silence.
There is a tendancy in all web forums for people to make outrageous or offensive comment; I seem to recall Iron Monkey was asked by a few people to explain some sarcastic remark or other about Hillsborough but has thus far failed to do so.
I'm sure most if not all of this is just "web bravado".
Yeah a lot of it is impulsive usage really.
It is offensive I can understand that but it's a delicate area because the word has a few meanings. Like when City or Liverpool will talk about United or Everton respectively they'll refer to the reds, the blues or the toffees, using their preferred name of choice.
They called their firm Yid or Yiddos and so I guess it caught on from there. I have to admit I join in the Sp**s songs but I feel a little weird using the word Yid in a song. I understand as a group we accept the Spuds callthemselves Yid Army or Yiddos but it still has that offensive tone to it.
Like I said elsewhere I wonder what our boardmembers, who have Jewish members think about this. Maybe they laugh at it and see it as funny.
If someone said something offensive to me and you could deem it humourous I think it should be taken like that but many people do take offence and really highlight an aggressive stance to suppress people who exercise such liberties.
Anyway, in groups I always remark it as offensive and we have to consider people who do take it offensively. It's a rather complicated area I feel because of the fact Sp**s fans call themselves Yids.
I would really like people who disagree with me or people who are not clear what all the fuss is about please take a look at these three links.
They explain a little bit more about what myself and ‘beaney’ are talking about.
words from roman abramovic
some americans discuss it - scroll down the page to the 'comments' part where they start talking about these chants
some of the chants
I know these are mainly talking about Chelsea and they are notoriously worse than gooners, but it does still go on at highbury, I know it is a minority, but it seems they are hiding amongst a majority who accept it.
I think 'vin de guerre' hit the nail on the head when he said this...
To digress slightly from the anti-semitic chants, but to highlight further 'vin de guerre's point; I recently saw a drunk gooner thug in the gunners bar before the man utd match at highbury proudly holding up a picture of Jessica and Holy Wells because they were wearing Man Utd shirts! That is sick, disgusting and disgraceful.
And it is why I think chants and views like the ones being discussed are wrong and lead to people believing that football exists in a cultural vacuum, because quite frankly it doesn't and it shouldn't.
football supporters, especially those at matches, have a responsibility to ensure that the innocent people are not offended and equally as importantly the young football fans don't grow up thinking this is acceptable.
The only way to kick racism out of football is not to take these chants lightly.
To say everyone else does it, or their fans insult us so why shouldn’t I is absolutely pathetic and is exactly the sort of attitude that ensures racism stays in football.
It is very easy to support your team, sing your hear out, join in the banter with opposing fans and feel passionate about your club WITHOUT resorting to offensive chants. I, for one, have been doing it for 17 years ffs!!!
this is also an important point...
Just to play devils advocate here, at my school our year always played "Yids V", i.e. all the Jewish kids versus the non jewish kids.
However, this was on the request of the Jewish kids who actively promoted themselves as yids! (This was all the way up to 18 btw, so it was not just kiddies who did not know better).
Does that make the rest of us racist because we let them call themselves it?
I am toally against the use of "Yid" or "Yiddos" in any context apart from between Jews. I am Jewish myself and find it very offensive when anyone uses that sort of comment, clockend, it's not being PC, it's common sense. When it's that sort of word you just dont. I nearly cried when I saw there was a member here who was talking about chanting "Gas the Yids" or some thing like that, because it killed 10 million people or more. To be blunt, you just dont say stuff like that, especially when I'm around because I will smash your face in, half my family was lost in the Holocaust, which for those who dont know is where the chant "Gas the Yids" comes from and is personally offensive.
So I would prefer it if no one did it at all, which isn't gonna happen. So to be simple, could people try not to use "Yids" in abuse e.t.c.
No it doesn't make the rest of you racist, allyboy.
It would be racist if you or one of you friends, said something along the lines of "I don't want to play on your team because you are a dirty Yid"
And I'm not just talking about 'kiddies' I am talking about young men, who don't seem to see what the problem is or where the line should be drawn. My old boss (early 30's) is an Arsenal fan and he sang some of those anti-semitic songs featured in the link above whilst in the office. This was an intelligent, grown man whom I previously quite respected.
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