Arsenal's Stagnation: What Went Wrong?

[Big Poppa]

I have always wondered why did Wenger go from having vieiras and gilbertos in midfield who were technically good but also hard as hell to players like xhaka and elneny who with all due respect look neither. Diaby aside can’t think of another midfielder of that ilk that he went for after vieira left.

I have always felt that his wish was to have a class of 92 kind of team at arsenal for his legacy. With wilshere and Ramsey as CM, Gibbs as LB, Walcott as RW, sanogo as CF, Jenkinson as RB etc. which is why he still keeps a lot of them around.

In addition Wenger used to be great in finding gems in France so not sure why he stopped suddenly when France have great players yet martial dembele Mbappe Coman rabiot etc are there but he didn’t go for them. 20 years back Wenger would have bought dembele to arsenal like anelka before the rest of the world knew him.

BANG ON.

Look at the make up of the side Pochettino has built at Sp*rs. Verthonghen, Dembele, Wanyama, Dier, Alderwereild, Kane, Alli, Aurier, Sanchez, Son. Mourinho's transformation of United from a side that finished 2 places below us in our worst season to a side competing for the title? Pretty much Matic & Lukaku. He was after Perisic too.

For whatever reason Wenger seems to have completely abandoned the very approach that made him successful. Strong, competitive players built on the foundation of a strong defence who attacked with purpose and precision.

The best of the creative players he's invested in like Nasri, Cesc, Hleb, Cazorla, Özil etc would've been fantastic supplements to those teams but instead he's build teams around this type of player! Utter madness. We had two entire seasons unbeaten away from home in 2002 & 2004 and I've thought a guy who achieved that would know what it takes to win tough games.

It's not something I'm sure I'll ever really be able to understand.

 

[Mark Tobias]

For whatever reason Wenger seems to have completely abandoned the very approach that made him successful. Strong, competitive players built on the foundation of a strong defence who attacked with purpose and precision.

Yet people will say he is still a great manager. WAS a great manager... WAS.

 

[Lookin' for a new Baby]

[QUOTForums

In addition Wenger used to be great in finding gems in France so not sure why he stopped suddenly when France have great players yet martial dembele Mbappe Coman rabiot etc are there but he didn’t go for them. 20 years back Wenger would have bought dembele to arsenal like anelka before the rest of the world knew him.[/QUOTE]

They cost too much money. You have to compete with other clubs and pay for potential. Everybody wants them, like Mbappe. Other clubs with money used to buy the finished article while Wenger went for he potential on the cheapish.

 

[Buvey]

Wenger became obsessed with proving everyone else wrong.

 

[Macho]

Maybe it’s because after a while they question him?

Keep in mind his most physical/toughest players he either inherited them (Adams etc) or brought them in from young (Viera) or brought them in from obscurity (Kos/Kolo). In one way or another they were indebted to him he has always made stars this way.

The few times he has bought ready made stars he has never really gotten much from them (Sanchez, Özil, Gallas etc)

Plenty of evidence to suggest he’s never liked dominant/bullish personalities.

 

[Sniper Mik]

One of the best football players and leaders I've ever seen was Roy Keane. He got hot headed and aggressive, ended Alf-Inge Haaland's career because he badly injured him and told him to get up. Imagine Ramsey or Eduardo or Debuchy or anyone else for that matter seeking revenge in that manner. It's the nasty side of the game and while Wilshere should learn the difference between a u23 and senior game he seems like one of the few who will get his own back.

He need more characters who take no ****. Heck doing so may have stopped the continual spat of injuries that derail us because teams will realise they kick and injure us we will come back and take revenge.

Football is a physical game and it requires people to get physical when it's required. Another stellar failure of Wenger is to have players that are hot headed and aggressive and I don't mean Gabriel with his pathetic flick on Costa.

I understand all of that. But you also have to consider that there's no way in hell refs would let an Arsenal player get away with what Roy Keane or Diego Costa did. Just not gonna happen. Didn't you see how fast Xhaka got a reputation in England? Like within weeks, and now he's scared to make a tackle. I know we need more aggression from our players but Wilshere can't go headlong into spats and arguments with players and referees every single time. He has to be more clever than he was in the past. I'm not saying he can't be that guy, I'm saying he should look to be that guy.

 

[Jury]

One of the best football players and leaders I've ever seen was Roy Keane. He got hot headed and aggressive, ended Alf-Inge Haaland's career because he badly injured him and told him to get up.

I used to think that too! But it was the other knee that ended Haalands career, not the one Keane mullered. Haaland even played for Norway a few days later and then a league game after that. It was probably the coincidence of going missing so soon after that Keane tackle that led people to believe it was Keanes doing.

 

[Tir Na Nog]

We've a manager who's no longer capable of overachieving and a board who're incredibly unambitious. It's pretty easy to figure out.

 

[Godwin1]

I understand all of that. But you also have to consider that there's no way in hell refs would let an Arsenal player get away with what Roy Keane or Diego Costa did. Just not gonna happen. Didn't you see how fast Xhaka got a reputation in England? Like within weeks, and now he's scared to make a tackle. I know we need more aggression from our players but Wilshere can't go headlong into spats and arguments with players and referees every single time. He has to be more clever than he was in the past. I'm not saying he can't be that guy, I'm saying he should look to be that guy.

Bit of a difference really, Xhaka has a reputation for making dumb **** tackles and decisions, not for really being a hard man or a dirty bastard. The other two are a bit smarter in how they go about things with obvious exceptions.

 

[IslingtonBornandbred]

BANG ON.

Look at the make up of the side Pochettino has built at Sp*rs. Verthonghen, Dembele, Wanyama, Dier, Alderwereild, Kane, Alli, Aurier, Sanchez, Son. Mourinho's transformation of United from a side that finished 2 places below us in our worst season to a side competing for the title? Pretty much Matic & Lukaku. He was after Perisic too.

For whatever reason Wenger seems to have completely abandoned the very approach that made him successful. Strong, competitive players built on the foundation of a strong defence who attacked with purpose and precision.

The best of the creative players he's invested in like Nasri, Cesc, Hleb, Cazorla, Özil etc would've been fantastic supplements to those teams but instead he's build teams around this type of player! Utter *******. We had two entire seasons unbeaten away from home in 2002 & 2004 and I've thought a guy who achieved that would know what it takes to win tough games.

It's not something I'm sure I'll ever really be able to understand.

You ask Wenger that question, about the power of the past teams and what he's tried since. He probably won't even recognise the difference. He'll probably construct some sort of philosophical quote that makes no sense and distracts from the question.

"Arsène, how did you move away from the likes of Vieira, Petit, Gilberto, Edu, and end up with a midfield of *insert lightweight player here*?

"Well errrrrrrr, you see Vieira was French and outside the sun is shining and some days it rains and mental strength and spirit and well errrr you know"

 

[Mo Britain]

The short answer is Kronke. Wenger is partly responsible for not being tactically flexible and not spending money when he is told it is available but ultimately Kronke is taking the team the "franchise" route where what is important is to balance the books and not win trophies. Low or no risk strategy.

 

[rich 1990]

Everyone's to blame. Wenger, Kroenke, Gazidis, the players, Arsenal TV, the stadium, the staff who affect Wenger's transfer plans, the fans. This club makes me sick.

 

[rich 1990]

3 times we've lost to ****ing Watford. ****ing Watford. It's unfuckingbelievable.

 

[hydrofluoric acid]

This is just phase in long story, every club goes through something like this. We don't see it because we are in it. One day someone will look at the 400 years history of this club and he won't even notice this dip. He will even see a success. 3 Fa Cups in short space of time.

 

[Rain Dance]

Rosicky retired in the beginning of 2016-2017 season, our away record crumbled starting in 2016-2017 season... coincidence? I don't think so.

 

[OSBK]

The young French & Spanish players left the club and were very ungrateful to Wenger who basically made their careers!

Those years when our team had all these talented youngsters from different countries but lacked a domestic core of players that all previous successful teams comprised hence this is the reason Arséne opted for Wilshere and Co.

Of course it hasn't been a fully successful project and Wenger had made mistakes with most of that group but you also have to consider they all had injuries which stifled their development.

Absolutely agree about the injuries.

The core of our team cannot be british anymore, no top team in europe has a british core. I do agree with your overall point but so wish we just to what we did years ago, the proof is in the pudding when you see monaco etc.

 

[dashsnow17]

Obviously objectively and in the grand scheme of things we're doing just fine. But football's not about that. It's about illusions, expectations and hopes.

There's no more hope and so little passion. Everything is wrong: Owner, board, manager, business strategy, style of play, type of player, even the stadium and fans are sapping the life out of me..I mean Jesus has any other stadium in the world as many club level seats as the Emirates? Atletico's new gaff, now that's a thing of beauty.

Kroenke out. Consortium of fans to take over. Lower ticket prices and get the stadium full again with some actual atmosphere and excitement.

Finally, go back to basics. We tried to be Barcelona and for a while I really believed we were. Now I don't even have that illusion to cling onto. 4-4-2 with strength and pace. We missed out on Ibra all those years ago, well get Dolberg and build the team around him. Sergej too, guy's a monster.

 

[Toast]

Here's a thread to look at the big picture of why we're no longer a club competing for the title. The past decade has been a repetitive disappointment where our expectations as fans have not been met. So what went wrong?

Great thread, and an interesting question. I've been mulling it over, and I think our stagnation cannot be attributed to a single factor - tempting though that may be. Rather, it's the result of a long series of misjudgements and wrong choices, coupled with the wrong people in the wrong places.

I'm not all that interested in assigning degrees of blame to various people, so instead will try to set out as best I can simply how I think things got to where we are now.

I do believe that when we built the Emirates the club truly believed it would propel us to the absolute top. However, since that decision was made changes occurred - both within and outside of our control - to which we responded poorly.

1. We changed a winning formula by moving away from the Invincibles to play Barcelona-esque football. We misjudged the direction football as a whole was taking, assuming that possession football would become the new norm or the new road to success. It did not.

2. We fostered a socialist wage structure and stuck to it long after it became clear it was hampering us. This made it difficult to retain our best players and would cause greater problems down the line.

3. When the effects of new money on the league became clear, we failed to respond. We put all our eggs in the FFP basket and assumed it would bail us out. We tried neither to boost our finances, nor did we try to level the playing field by focusing more on scouting and the developing of young players.

4. At some point during the stadium transition complacency set in, perhaps due to the realisation that the stadium move would not have its intended effect. This complacency showed itself it the structures of the club. Our scouting department slowly slid from finding gems to being a laughing stock and missing out on the entire new French golden generation. Our commercial department became conservative and unambitious. Our contract negotiators are no longer taken seriously. Our academy has failed to consistently deliver. No real attempt was made by anyone to halt the decline in the various departments.

5. At some point, Wenger became obsessed with player-loyalty. The socialist wage-structure is part of that. It's intended to keep things harmonious in the squad. The effects of this we're all too aware of. Having been burned one too many times, we changed tack again to focus on building a British core - in the hope that British players would be more loyal to the club. Years of shoehorning followed.

6. Meanwhile, and partly due to the British core experiment, we lost our identity. We went from the Invincibles, to Barca-style possession football to the undefined, almost random style we see today. Wengerball is long gone.

7. Finally, and especially in recent years, the unintended consequences of our wage structure have struck. Our socialist wage structure for a long time meant we overpaid our dross and underpaid our stars. The stars then left, but we couldn't sell our deadwood, because nobody else would pay them what they earn here. Our terrible income from sales over the last few years is testament to this.

Not being able to shift players meant we got stuck in a trap or perpetual transition. We're trying to revitalize the squad, but can't because the deadwood can't be moved on. There was neither money nor room for new players, and the squads we had over the past few years consequently have all been weird hodge-podges of players whose playing styles don't match. See our current midfield conundrum, as one example.

Another blow was struck when we found out that this summer - despite not having any players on massive contracts - our wage bill was still so enormously bloated that we were - supposedly - unable to sign anyone else bar Kolasinac and Lacazette.


8. In the background, our commercial department under the leadership of Ivan Gazidis made bad deals and became characterised by a distinct lack of innovation. I've set my thoughts on this issue out elsewhere in more detail, including how bad our current deals are. Even this summer's debacle could, reportedly, have been avoided if our commercial side had showed a touch of ambition and innovative thinking.

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Effectively, instead of transforming us into a super-club as was intended, the stadium move transformed us into a business. As a football club we may be stagnating or even declining, but as a business, we're not stagnating and that is what keeps the whole show running.

At some point down the line we seem to have simply thrown in the towel on our goal of competing with the biggest clubs and instead became complacent. Since our owner is happy to run us as a business, he did not and does not care how we do on the pitch. His bottom line is doing well, and that's what matters to him. So he doesn't interfere in the club. Everybody else - from Gazidis to Wenger to the players - lost their drive to compete years ago and are just doing the bare minimum to keep their jobs and to keep the cash rolling in. As long as the minimum is achieved, nobody is accountable to anybody, except to their own standards.

At Arsenal the carrot is easily attained and the stick is nowhere to be seen.

With that in mind, it's easy to see why so many big players have left us over the years. Their personal ambitions were bigger than those of the club. Within the club personal standards of success have dropped, competitive edges were lost and with nobody trying to force improvement from above, stagnation is the natural result.

 

[celestis]

[QUOTForums

In addition Wenger used to be great in finding gems in France so not sure why he stopped suddenly when France have great players yet martial dembele Mbappe Coman rabiot etc are there but he didn’t go for them. 20 years back Wenger would have bought dembele to arsenal like anelka before the rest of the world knew him.

They cost too much money. You have to compete with other clubs and pay for potential. Everybody wants them, like Mbappe. Other clubs with money used to buy the finished article while Wenger went for he potential on the cheapish.[/QUOTE]

Coman was booked for a medical but Juve came in . So he went for him just couldn't get him over the line .

 

[<<reed>>]

They cost too much money. You have to compete with other clubs and pay for potential. Everybody wants them, like Mbappe. Other clubs with money used to buy the finished article while Wenger went for he potential on the cheapish.

Dembele costed 15m, Lemar - 4m, etc. Of course you have to pay a lot when the likes of Monaco/Dortmund do all the job for rich lazy clubs to find a gem and turn him into a star.