Patrick Vieira (Out)

[asajoseph]

whoever Arsène buys I'm sure that person will be successful at the club unless it's another Cygan type player

So, in other words... 'Whoever Arsène buys will be successful at the club, unless they're not.'



Just pulling your chain mate.

Anyhow, I've made my views about SWP in that thread (good, but overrated: don't want or need him), and Owen about 3 months ago (quite like him, he'd do well, but we could do better) and Torres countless times before (would suit us well, but way out of budget range).

 

[asajoseph]

I do not get the feeling we will buy a keeper or defender though what if Sol and Toure stay fit? We always have Senderos to come in when he's needed plus who's going to buy Cygan now? We'll be left paying his wages while he plays for the reserves!

I don't see Sol being any more 'fit' than he was last season, honestly - he's always been injury prone and it looks like it's catching upwith him now. But what if Toure and Sol stay fit? Simple - sign a better player and more natural defender than Kolo Toure. It won't be that hard to do. Move him to the bench or RB. Chances are, he and Senderos will still get plenty of games anyway. As for Cygan being in the reserves? Well, he plays for them most weeks anyway - tough ****!

As for keeper the only way we'll get a top class keeper is if Lehmann leaves, Lehmann currently is our no. 1 and will be next season so I doubt any top class keeper would want to sit on the bench.

Lehmann doesn't have to be our no.1 if we find someone better. If we find a young keeper capable of playing in the 1st team already, they're guaranteed at least 2 CL starts at the beginning of the year, and will probably have overtaken Lehmann by the end of the season anyway.

 

[Ratinho]

Agree about the defenders Asa, because I remember how dangerous Toure was from the bench after a hard 70 minutes, bringing on some wide eyed lunatic to scare teams. Now he's an an unnatural, but capable, centre back.

Not sure who exactly we could do better than, than Owen for the approx price he'd be tbh.

And Lehmann's a quality keeper. Hardly high on my list of priorities for the start of the season, and if he's not motivated to succeed this season, of all seasons, i'd be very surprised.

Long and short of it is, we can talk about Isaaksons, Hildebrands, Chivus, etc all we like, but we have to remember everytime we ask 'Why haven't we signed him??', it's probably because we don't want to. :roll:

 

[asajoseph]

I don't know how much Owen will cost, so I can't really judge whether or not we could do better for the money. However, all this talk of Baptista has made me think that there are players of higher quality who may be available to Arsenal over the summer, who would do a better job. If Owen were the worst we could do, I'd be more than happy though, of course.

As for Lehmann, I don't disagree with him being a quality keeper. He's just old, and keepers at his age tend to start breaking down. Some do it a few years earlier, some a few years later, but right now the quality of our backup is absolutely shocking. Not only that, he's suspended for the first two CL games this year. Unless we get a lucky draw, I'm not confident of going into those games with Almunia. Normally we need all the help we can get in the CL, and as far as I can see, nothing's changed to allow us the luxury of a couple of games with a dreadful keeper.

Of course, I get the impression too that Wenger rates Almunia, and won't factor in Sol's injuries. He's a better person than me to judge, of course, but as a fan I can only offer my oppinions. Time will tell whether or not Wenger is right.

 

[Ratinho]

Oh, the sodding CL ban!

Yuo're right, should've been a priority this summ,er, ahead of most things. Are there any keepers out there that AW really fancies?? :|

I still think Baptista would not have been mentioned apart from maybe a fleeting admiration, had we not made a bid for him. He's obviously a quality player, but he aint all that's out there, as some people whining in an 80 ODD PAGE THREAD ( ) would have you think.

 

[asajoseph]

Are there any keepers out there that AW really fancies??

Ricardo? Let's hope not... That one looks like a media driven story anyway. To be honest, I have no idea - the best clues we'll get are looking at the keepers Wenger went for the summer we ended up with Lehmann, but even doing that is limited by the fact that Wenger was looking for a keeper with an extreme budget (less than 3 mil). Back then, he looked at the likes of Marcos, Fabian Carini, Canizares and of course Jens. Where that would lead us to look now is unclear though...

So who does Wenger like? Well, if it's not Ricardo, he's managed to keep it a very closely guarded secret (more so than he usually manages), OR (and this is my suspicion), he wants to prove he was right with Almunia, isn't looking at other goalkeepers.

I still think Baptista would not have been mentioned apart from maybe a fleeting admiration, had we not made a bid for him.

There was a lot of talk of Baptista before we made a bid for him, particularly when the Robinho topic was hot, with people saying that 'Robinho's great, but they'd prefer Baptista'.

He's obviously a quality player, but he aint all that's out there, as some people whining in an 80 ODD PAGE THREAD ( ) would have you think.

Eh, that would be me

I'm sure he's not all that's out there, and I'm sure Arsène has other ideas and plans (even if they're not for this summer). I just can't for the life of me think of a comparable option. If you have any ideas, do let me know!

 

[Ratinho]

I didn't class you as one of the whiners, i'm talking about the kind that seem to have pencilled in **** if Baptista doesn't come, and feel like killing Wenger for enquiring about a player and then not being able to get him. :roll:

I dunno who else tbh. Bojinov seems to be stuck at Fiorentina now Juve have lost interest, and depending on who else is actually in for him, Gilardinho might cost £15m~ instead of reported £25m~ soon. I think Babel at Ajax is very special, but these are not as advanced level as Baptista, I agree.

 

[asajoseph]

Ah, Ryan Babel - forgot about him, and not heard his name in a while... Actually, despite the fact that he's only 18, he does look like a fantastic prospect, and is already a big strong lad (taller AND heavier than Baptista). But he's got some top skills too, and impressed me last season and at the U20 world cup. Of course you're right, he's not at Baptista's level yet and will take a year or two to get there. But if we've got cash to spend, he'd be a fantastic investment...

Gilardino and Bojinov I don't see leaving Italy (Bojinov's new at Fiorentina, and Gilardino looks far more likely to head to Milan), so I don't think either is a particularly realistic option right now.

 

[asajoseph]

Oh, for the record, Babel's just in the past 7 days signed a contract extension at Ajax (now contracted until 2008). So I doubt he's leaving this summer either...

 

[Ratinho]

We might aswell try and get Baptista then.

Shall I start a thread?

 

[kel varnsen]

why won't this owen thing go away...? if we end up wasting money on the useless midget, i'll be absolutely gutted. i fear that if the baptista deal falls through, we might end up getting owen.

 

[Gordygooner]

I fail to see how anybody can claim that Owen is either a 'midget' (and whatever their midget minds imply by this) or unlikely to be able to do a job for Arsenal. Frankly, I would bite off the hand that offers him to us - he will score goals by the truck-load. His record is second to none. Many are quick to forget that he plied his trade in a distinctly average (by their historical standards) Liverpool side. Although not a similar player, he reminds me of Ian Wright, always likely to score goals for the Arse, but are we likely to win the league with him - not really....
With Owen here, we have a proven goalscorer who can share the load with Henry and others. No brainer.....

 

[regele]

Ah, Ryan Babel - forgot about him, and not heard his name in a while... Actually, despite the fact that he's only 18, he does look like a fantastic prospect, and is already a big strong lad (taller AND heavier than Baptista). But he's got some top skills too, and impressed me last season and at the U20 world cup. Of course you're right, he's not at Baptista's level yet and will take a year or two to get there. But if we've got cash to spend, he'd be a fantastic investment...

Gilardino and Bojinov I don't see leaving Italy (Bojinov's new at Fiorentina, and Gilardino looks far more likely to head to Milan), so I don't think either is a particularly realistic option right now.

indeed, i was thinking of starting a babel thread, promissing player, henry-like constitution, seen him play for ajax and in romania-netherland qualifier, i've also heard that arsenal is his favourite club, so that might be a plus of commitment from him, don't worry about the contract thing, he probably didn't have a concrete offer, remember the ronaldinho thing? he stayed at psg a season more after the wc 2002, although it was clear he was a quality player, offers just didn't come, anyway it was probably just a protection from the club's side.
Oh and to be on topic, i don't know where real gets this "brilliant" ideas, owen for vieira, or owen for ferdinand, why don't they just give us pavon, or raul bravo, wouldn't make any difference if we were as stupid as they thought.

 

[asajoseph]

The main problem with Babel is that I don't think he's close to being ready yet, or provide what we're looking for as a striker. Yet he'd still cost a fair amount of money, probably too much for us to afford to spend on someone who's a year or two away from the first team. We need to spend our money to sign impact players now - despite a decent season, Babel for me is still some way off.

Oh and to be on topic, i don't know where real gets this "brilliant" ideas, owen for vieira, or owen for ferdinand, why don't they just give us pavon, or raul bravo, wouldn't make any difference if we were as stupid as they thought.

That's the funniest thing I've read in quite a while.

 

[Ratinho]

That's funny Asa, because this...

why won't this owen thing go away...? if we end up wasting money on the useless midget, i'll be absolutely gutted. i fear that if the baptista deal falls through, we might end up getting owen.

...is the funniest thing i've read. :roll:

Seriously Kel, I like you, and you seem to know your stuff on the whole, but this thing you have wityh Owen is bizarre considering his record and what he's already proved at an early age.

And Asa, although i'm a massive Babel fan, I agree. He wouldn't be ahead of Reyes or van Persie and that would make him a pointless siging at this stage.

Our squad is strong, it's our 1st 11 that needs more strength now.

 

[kel varnsen]

i know most of you disagree with me. i do exaggerate, but only to make my point. i'll be gutted in the sense that i don't think owen will improve our squad and it will, ultimately, be a waste of money.

1.he is a proven goalscorer and i'm sure he'd bang in a few for us as well, but would we be better as a team with owen instead of bergkamp, reyes or van persie? i don't think so. in my opinon, own isn't skilled enough to play for us.

2.owen has a good goal ratio, but that is primarily for england and liverpool. teams where he was the guy they all were looking to. he was the star amongst mediocrity(no offense...). how would he do as just one out of many? if we look at how he is doing in spain, we might at least get an indication. real madrid is a very skilled side as well and owen is struggling there. he has scored a few goals coming in as a sub, but other than that, he has had a lousy season.

3.pace used to be owen's major forte, but injuries have almost put an end to that. without his devestating pace, what is owen? a goal poacher? a franny jeffers....?

 

[AFCG7]

I dont think Owen is struggling that much in Madrid.. He cant make the starting lineup because Ronaldo is the number one striker and Raul is the captain and cannot be dropped because of team politics. Yet still Owen has been able to come off the bench and score regularly enough .

 

[asajoseph]

My view of Owen is that he has an instinct that is second to very few in the world at the moment - he knows where to be, and he makes the space for himself to score goals. Just look at how well he does with his head - ok, it's hardly an amazing tally, but considering he's so short and STILL scores more goals with his head it just shows you the way that he knows where to be at the right time. He's always had that, and still does.

Furthermore, he plays high and through the middle of the park, which none of our strikers currently do. Bergkamp spends a lot of the time in our own half, whilst Henry, Reyes and RvP all play wide. Owen would certainly give our attack an extra dimension that it currently lacks. And he'd score goals, thriving on passes from Hleb, Henry, RvP, Pires and all the rest. Scoring 19 a season for a liverpool team with NO creativity was a heck of an achievement. And argue as much as you like, he does score for Madrid and England STILL. And he's no longer the focus of England's attack, that's for sure.

Not to mention he'd bring the fear factor - Owen wouldn't HAVE to play that well, because the attention he'd attract in the Premiership would deflect lots of it from Henry, meaning the rest of our players would get more freedom. Ok, it's not a great reason, but it's something to consider.

BUT, Kel makes some good points too. Whilst I don't believe that pace was Owen's only suit, he used to be lightening fast and has lost a yard or two now, and that aspect of his game has been weakened significantly over the last year or two.

Not only that, he has very little strength. He would have done a no better job than Bergkamp (who was pretty awful) playing as a solo striker in a 4-5-1, which I believed was an option Wenger would consider for occasional use next season, and why Baptista was such a good target.

In short, I think Mickey O. is a good player, and would do well for us. But I don't think he's the best thing we can come up with this summer, and I'm sure Wenger can find players better than him for us. He'll be looking for someone big and strong, of that I'm sure, and Owen just doesn't fit the bill.

 

[kel varnsen]

Bergkamp spends a lot of the time in our own half

...and why do you think that is? because we have absolutely no creativity in central midfield whenever gilberto and vieira play. bergkamp drops down out of necessity.

i shudder just by the thought of owen and henry in front of gilberto and vieira...

 

[asajoseph]

.and why do you think that is? because we have absolutely no creativity in central midfield whenever gilberto and vieira play. bergkamp drops down out of necessity.

Actually, I still won't agree with you that we have no creativity in the centre of the park no matter how many times we cross swords over it- if we had a striker who made runs through the middle like we used to with Anelka, it'd probably be a different story. Gilberto's general passing leaves a lot to be desired, but if we had a player making runs through the middle, we'd see a LOT more from Vieira.

Bergkamp coming deep has nothing to do with our midfielders though - he's always played like that, when Petit was here, for Holland, for Ajax, for Inter.... These days he just doesn't have the fitness to play on the halfway line and get into the box when he should for 70 minutes of the game.